[Haitch]

rock316ae is the best user on this forum. absolutely love all of his posts. the man knows what the fuck is he talking about.

best nigga on this forum and it's not even close!

[Brye]

Originally Posted by Rock316AE

In my case, most of the time I have the same opinion as the masses and I'm not a stereotypical internet/indy fanboy who likes skinny wrestlers playing grappling because they were in the indies and learn to hate guys like Hogan, Bischoff Goldberg and Nash based on the BS they're telling themselves, that's it. As for drawing cards, this side of the industry is more interesting than the actual product for a long time now, people were always talking about the business side of wrestling but especially since the MNW and continues all the way to today, this is not a real sport so that's all the facts and indicators we have on true greatness.

I don't think indy fans just like smaller wrestlers because they were in the indys. The difference between three indy guys and guys like Nash or Hogan is the ability to put on a better match. It may not have that "larger than life" feel, but that's not what everyone is looking for. And regardless of what you think, you can still have a big match feel in a small venue, and if you don't believe me, watch Punk/Cabana from Punk's final match in ROH or Danielson/KENTA and listen to the crowd.

I can watch a Hogan match if it's against someone like Savage but he never particularly interested me. On the other hand, I can watch someone like Bourne or Ziggler face virtually anyone.

It's really just a matter of opinion but I wouldn't say that every indy fan (don't even have to be an indy fan to like that side of wrestling) has the same stereotypical feelings. I actually feel for Hogan alot more since the divorce but someone like Golberg just never appealed to me. He had a few really nice looking moves, but very rarely did he string a good match together, imo.

Two different sides of the spectrum. One side is more a fan of the wrestling itself and others enjoy the theatrics of it. I love myself a good storyline, but if it's going to lead to bad matches then it sort of takes me out of it.

[Haitch]

that larger than life feel is what sells not indy midgets hacks who can't draw a dime. generic mothefuckers! the people want to see storytelling in a match not 30 headlocks, armbars, and shit!

[Rock316AE]

I'm not talking about you specifically, just from years of pages on the same subjects gave the internet fans this stereotype(all that without talking about the fact that they think technical wrestling is the only good style when in fact, it was never a main event style). That's why I said because this is not a real sport, the only indicator we have is the business side of the industry, people can like a Khali match more than a Kurt Angle match, it's opinion, but if WCW drew 30k for a regular Monday Nitro with Goldberg vs Nash as the main program and you like both guys(not talking about me here), that's what I'm looking for more than if a wrestler sold his finger for less than two minutes, how many boring rest holds were in the match or some meaningless stuff like that. That's my point on this and every wrestler in history will agree with me unless he simply doesn't understand the business.

[Hazaq]

Originally Posted by Choke2Death

Actually, he sort of is. HHH/Rock would have probably gotten the million buys but mostly because of the Rock's in-ring return as he's faced HHH many, many times before. If HHH was such a big PPV draw, let alone bigger than Cena, Night of Champions or Vengeance would have done better with them being two out of his only four PPVs where he wrestled.

Vengeance 2011 top drawing match = John Cena vs Del Rio.

Night of champions usually does low buys every year. N.O.C 2011 did only 4000 less than the year before and its because of the fucked up booking, just like Survivor series 2011. You cant blame HHH or punk for that matter. N.O.C PPV had 4 weeks of build, for 2 weeks the build was for NASH vs Punk, then suddenly they changed the main event to HHH vs punk. The feud build up was just two promos, one on smackdown contract signing and the face-off on RAW both of which was completely filled with Insider terms. Pretty sure most of the casual fans were left confused. J.R even criticized the HHH/PUNK face-off promo on Twitter the day after.

Anyways, I dont understand what your point is. In 2012, no one is a big PPV draw not even Rock or taker and both have a advantage of showing up once in a while. PPV is a dying business, there is not one superstar that can make a difference right now not Cena, not HHH, not Brock or Taker/Rock.

Wrestlemania did monster number because its Wrestlemania, the name value.

[A-C-P]

Plenty of Us here can seperate the "business side" discussions and the "wrestling side" discussions. I think the problem here is the few posters that can't seperate the 2 tend to be the most "vocal" (or on here put out the most posts) about the subject and don't realize that the rest of us are seperating the 2 discussions and take it as attacking thier favorite wrestler rather jsut a discussion on the business side of wrestling.

It works the other way to though at times when people bring the "business side" of wrestling into other threads that are more wrestling side focused as well. But when you have a forum made up of so many different fans that are fans for so many different reasons and come from so many different places things like this are bound to happen.

Well of course then there are the people who are just trolling as well.

[Choke2Death]

Originally Posted by Hazaq

Vengeance 2011 top drawing match = John Cena vs Del Rio.

Night of champions usually does low buys every year. N.O.C 2011 did only 4000 less than the year before and its because of the fucked up booking, just like Survivor series 2011. You cant blame HHH or punk for that matter. N.O.C PPV had 4 weeks of build, for 2 weeks the build was for NASH vs Punk, then suddenly they changed the main event to HHH vs punk. The feud build up was just two promos, one on smackdown contract signing and the face-off on RAW both of which was completely filled with Insider terms. Pretty sure most of the casual fans were left confused. J.R even criticized the HHH/PUNK face-off promo on Twitter the day after.

Anyways, I dont understand what your point is. In 2012, no one is a big PPV draw not even Rock or taker and both have a advantage of showing up once in a while. PPV is a dying business, there is not one superstar that can make a difference right now not Cena, not HHH, not Brock or Taker/Rock.

Wrestlemania did monster number because its Wrestlemania, the name value.

I know what you are saying, I was just pointing out that Cena is a bigger draw/name than HHH who doesn't even bring more buyrates as a part-timer. At this point, the only true draw they have is The Rock and even he needs the right opponent for huge buyrates.

[Hazaq]

Originally Posted by Choke2Death

I know what you are saying, I was just pointing out that Cena is a bigger draw/name than HHH who doesn't even bring more buyrates as a part-timer. At this point, the only true draw they have is The Rock and even he needs the right opponent for huge buyrates.

HHH is hardly a part timer. He keeps coming back every two months. Even in 2011, he returned Feb 2011 left post WM, returned again in august and was there every week all the way to Wrestlemania, missed like one month, January, in between. HHH might appear stale because he is playing a babyface for far too long and he keeps coming back too often but it doesnt mean he cant draw anymore. All he needs is to turn heel but anyway this is pointless argument, I said it before right now no one superstar is a difference maker as for PPVs are concerned. Rock is the biggest star in name value and 1.3m is a big success no doubt, but it doesnt prove Rock is a difference maker.

As someone already pointed out, Cena is not a bigger draw but he is certainly more popular than HHH,Taker,Brock and pretty much anyone not known as The Rock.

[Contrarian]

Discussing Ratings is not wrong, people obsessing over it is.

Anyways, Ratings or not, DB = G.O.A.T!

[ecabney]

Originally Posted by Choke2Death

A little secret: Dolph Ziggler, CM Punk and Daniel Bryan wouldn't be able to do that. And that's three guys you jock, one of which I like. (D-Bryan)



Cena may not be much of a draw today but he still brings the 'casual' fanbase and his crowd reaction proves it. And he's not bigger than Stone Cold (one of the two biggest stars from WWE's most successful era) or Undertaker (a guy who I knew about long before I became a wrestling fan or knew who John Cena was)



Yes, but Taker has also taken a few breaks here and there for the last few years which has made fans more used to seeing others such as Batista and Edge on the show rather than mostly Taker. Taker is still a bigger name in wrestling history, though.



Maybe a few elitists who tried to stand-out by saying the build-up for Rock/Cena sucked. Otherwise, most of the 1.3 million buys came from the interest in the main event that was announced a year in advance and even had non-fans interested. HHH/Taker already had a WM match the year before and I don't know how many actually believed that Hunter was going to beat the streak. Rock/Cena was presented as "Once in a Lifetime", HHH/Taker were having their THIRD match at Wrestlemania, the most anyone has gotten to face Taker at the grandest stage. I bet that's going to help the show sell over the 7 digits mark.

Wasn't Shawn Michaels/Undertaker II the selling point of WM26? This time, they even put HBK's career on the line and guess what... the sales blew for that Mania. So I doubt a match based around a similar storyline with an opponent he's already faced twice was going to sell the PPV just because of the cell structure being placed around the ring.



Actually, he sort of is. HHH/Rock would have probably gotten the million buys but mostly because of the Rock's in-ring return as he's faced HHH many, many times before. If HHH was such a big PPV draw, let alone bigger than Cena, Night of Champions or Vengeance would have done better with them being two out of his only four PPVs where he wrestled.



Yeah, with kids who find their length 'exotic'. And also, your point is?



Not at all. The people who attack CM Punk for being a non-draw are Rock fans with usernames/avatars of Rock, Orton marks don't really give a damn about draws and neither do they yap about how big a draw he is.



It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that someone like ADR wouldn't succeed considering that despite all he's been given within a year, he still can't get a reaction from the crowd to save his life.



Your point is?



Never disputed that, I was merely pointing out the hypocrisy of Punk marks who always have to talk shit about Orton's drawing abilities when their own hero can't draw shit.

I'm not gonna speak on Ziggler, but Punk and D-Bry are two guys that are marginally over and they move merch. Those two guys being booked in the top storyline heading into Mania would do solid numbers automatic. CM Punk would especially do great numbers leading up to Mania in the top feud, as the guy was one of the main reasons why MITB drew so well. If CM Punk can get implemented into a top storyline heading into a B PPV and then come out of it with solid PPV buys, then I'm almost certain that he'd flourish being an integral part of a top feud heading into Mania.