[GillbergReturns]

Originally Posted by DesolationRow

Well, the first hour averaged almost 100,000 viewers more than the second hour, which leads me to believe that HBK/Trips was, not surprisingly, a beast coming out of the starting gate. I wouldn't be surprised if they started with a 3.5/3.6 rating or so for that.

The real kicker to all of this is that WWE--from a ratings perspective, anyway--had a fairly solid game plan in having a bunch of Rock skits mapped out for the whole show, Cena's three-minute and change "empty arena" promo hitting at the very beginning of the fourth quarter, etceteras. I think what would really hurt is if they just had static ratings throughout the night, with only occasional major drops here and there, following the inevitable dropoff from HBK/Trips. Because that would indicate that the product/brand itself is not drawing very well at all, and that they're literally maxing out at a certain level of viewership.

Problem with that theory is that most of the Raw audience is so conditioned to knowing that QH1, QH5 and the final quarter hour-to-the-overrun are all that really matter, so all of WWE's maneuvers were very likely for naught.

One thing is obvious, the Streak rematch has many people's imaginations. Jericho/Punk, based on last week, anyway, seems to be capturing a lot of excitement. It's fairly evident that Rock/Cena is hemorrhaging excitement right now. There's only one thing to do, get three chairs and Jim Ross and have them cut the most realistic-but-not-kayfabe-breaking promo against one another, ala Austin/Rock with JR leading into WM X-7. JR could talk about how he signed both guys, etceteras. Give this damned thing some weight and depth. Oh well, guess we'll be having concerts instead.

I actually think the reality to the feud is killing it because instead of working together to build interesting segments you have 2 guys looking to embarrass each other with points nobody really cares about anyways.

I don't think any sort of promo can save this feud. It's time to throw down because there's nothing left to talk about.

They need to ditch the reality stuff and focus on Cena needing the victory to secure his legacy as the future of the company. People want to see an aggressiveness out of Cena not more campiness.

Rock hurt himself with his promo at Mania and the whole birthday episode. The buzz from his return wore off and people are just waiting for him to back to Hollywood. It's sad but true.

[DesolationRow]

Mister Hands is right. Harrison Ford was a huge movie star but The Fugitive became a big hit in large part because it was well-directed, well-acted and well-written. Tommy Lee Jones became a draw himself, in his own right, because he was so impeccably cast and he gave such a terrific performance.

Like Triple H in late 2004/early 2005. He was a huge wrestling star but the Evolution Disintegration/Batista Rebellion Angle became a big hit in large part because it was well-presented, well-acted and well-written. Batista became a draw himself, because he was so impeccably cast and gave such a terrific performance.

WWE needs more Fugitives.

[Starbuck]

Originally Posted by DesolationRow

Ha... I wonder how much of this purported power struggle between Kevin Dunn and Triple H/Stephanie is actually true. It could be a reasonable explanation for why the company has seemed to be in a kind of state of constant turmoil these past, oh, eight months or so.

The funny/sad thing is, Vince McMahon is absolutely batshit insane and seems to really think he's going to live forever, perpetually holding the power of running WWE. I legitimately wonder if he'll ever truly "let go" to Triple H and Stephanie.

There's a Dunn/Levesque power struggle? I don't know much about that.

What's even funnier is that Vince isn't the only one who believes that. I've heard both HHH and Steph say it it too lol.

[Marv95]

There's only one thing to do, get three chairs and Jim Ross and have them cut the most realistic-but-not-kayfabe-breaking promo against one another, ala Austin/Rock with JR leading into WM X-7. JR could talk about how he signed both guys, etceteras. Give this damned thing some weight and depth.

Or just have an all-out brawl between the 2 sometime before Mania. For two guys who have legit beef towards one another a lack of physicality is lame an unrealistic.

Either have Rock lose his cool after being "shown up" week after week, or have Rock get personal with Cena and actually bury him to the point where Cena finally gets fazed and you got a brawl. Screw being professional, time to get real.

[ThePhenomRises]

BTW who tells Cena to act like a retard? Creative?

If it's his own idea, he's got the most screwed up and stupid wrestling mind in history..... history.

[Mister Hands]

Originally Posted by DesolationRow

Mister Hands is right. Harrison Ford was a huge movie star but The Fugitive became a big hit in large part because it was well-directed, well-acted and well-written. Tommy Lee Jones became a draw himself, in his own right, because he was so impeccably cast and he gave such a terrific performance.

Like Triple H in late 2004/early 2005. He was a huge wrestling star but the Evolution Disintegration/Batista Rebellion Angle became a big hit in large part because it was well-presented, well-acted and well-written. Batista became a draw himself, because he was so impeccably cast and gave such a terrific performance.

WWE needs more Fugitives.

And Wesley Snipes didn't benefit just becuase he was in US Marshals (that was notionally a sequel, right?) with Tommy Lee Jones. I feel like that's significant, but I have no idea how or why.

[DesolationRow]

Originally Posted by GillbergReturns

I actually think the reality to the feud is killing it because instead of working together to build interesting segments you have 2 guys looking to embarrass each other with points nobody really cares about anyways.

I don't think any sort of promo can save this feud. It's time to throw down because there's nothing left to talk about.

They need to ditch the reality stuff and focus on Cena needing the victory to secure his legacy as the future of the company. People want to see an aggressiveness out of Cena not more campiness.

Rock hurt himself with his promo at Mania and the whole birthday episode. The buzz from his return wore off and people are just waiting for him to back to Hollywood. It's sad but true.

I understand what you're saying and I agree. As soon as I wrote "realistic" or whatever I realized I had utilized the wrong word. I just meant "realistic" in the way the Austin/Rock conversation was, and how, in a way, Cena's lone promo last night in an empty arena was. I agree with what you're saying about Cena, too. Enough with the laughing and smiling. I just wish they weren't doing this stupid concert crap next week, it's going to be more of the same. Maybe it'll end with a Rock Bottom somehow, but, eh. I do agree that Rock's luster has been worn down through this, that and the other.

[DesolationRow]

Originally Posted by Mister Hands

And Wesley Snipes didn't benefit just becuase he was in US Marshals (that was notionally a sequel, right?) with Tommy Lee Jones. I feel like that's significant, but I have no idea how or why.

Wesley Snipes was too black to be given the right kind of push.

And, yes, US Marshals was quite the step down from The Fugitive.

[Stad]

Originally Posted by Rock316AE

Awesome, fuck this company, these morons didn't even tell the audience that Rock is going to be there on their main show! I hope it gets lower every week until USA will throw their pathetic program from their network.

[Starbuck]

Originally Posted by Mister Hands

I agree with what you and DesolationRow are saying (Rock/Cena should be drawing more, no matter whether you care about such things or not, and I stubbornly refuse to ), but you're phrasing that question wrong. Cena, Punk, Ryder, et al aren't expected to be drawing those numbers for Over The Limit; it'd be nice if they did, but no one's expecting it. Rocky, Trips/Taker, these are all desperate attempts to use something to spike an obscene rating. A RTWM rating. Which they drew the last two years, as DesoRow said. They drew that in 2010 without Rock and without the grand returns of Trips and Taker. I don't have the numbers, and I don't care to look for them, but I assume that after WM, the ratings dropped right back down to normal, just like we'd be expecting Rocky, Trips, Taker and Shawn all toddle off post-WM.

Now they can't even get that temporary spike. Something is rotten in the state of WWE.

But if Rocky's return was an experiment, the conclusion is that WWE's problem isn't a lack of individual draws. It's something more systemic than that. He drew well enough last WM when his return was red fucking hot, but it's been a very literal case of diminishing returns - Survivor Series' buyrate was good, but not as good everyone perhaps hoped or expected, and we blamed it on the diastrous handling of the Awesome Truth feud. RTWM has been unflattering, to say the least, and the blame is being laid at the handling of the Rock/Cena feud.

Similarly, when Punk was red fucking hot, they spiked a buyrate for MITB. Then they brought him back waaayyyyy too soon to get interest for Summerslam. Then it just tails off, and we blame it on his getting lost in that Nash/Trips/Del Rio/Miz/whatever quagmire that no one could figure out.

I'm guessing the numbers would look similar for the Nexus' run in 2010 if I could be arsed looking for it.

They've been able to spike ratings before when they made things interesting. They've - somehow - made Rocky/Cena uninteresting to the people it should be specifically capturing. So the most important question isn't why isn't Rocky drawing, or why isn't WM drawing, or why won't Punk, Cena and Ryder draw. It's how the fuck can anyone be expected to draw consistently in such a creatively fucked company?

I agree with all of this. I was just making the point that if they can't hit 5 million with the star power they do have right now, what the hell are the numbers going to look like in 2/3 months time when all those names are gone? Nothings going to change overnight. WWE's problems are deeply rooted in creative, developmental, commentary, you name it. They need a complete overhaul. But you would think that they would at least have a band-aid in the likes of Rock/HHH/Taker/Cena etc appearing on the RTWM. Seems like they don't even have that anymore.