Originally Posted by Haley
I like the term of "obviously didn't make the match good" when it thwarts my opinion completely and only elevates yours. Why should I take the rest of this rebuttal seriously now?
>Says this despite me giving a example in the same post. Golly, why should I take the rest of this rebuttal seriously now? Please keep trying to play the victim card.
No matter how I feel about Elgin and list my reasons behind the disapproval they're going to be scoffed off in a weak attempt of "my opinion > your's and that's that."
The clear definition is you like Elgin, I don't, and for some reason this is upsetting to you. I love Sami Callihan. Absolutely a huge fan/mark of the guy. When I see some negative feedback towards him I can't say I care a single bit. It is what it is. For those gripes I have my perception and the others have their's. It's a big case of "who cares" in my eyes.
I read Seabs post, actually replied to it, before this and honestly was expecting more. So your excuse is "I shouldn't discuss a wrestler on a wrestling forum". Got ya. As for the latter half, I think I covered the points in my post with Seabs.
And here lies the problem? Being good isn't about what moves you can do.
Are you really going to pull that card ON ME
? No fucking shit cool moves don't matter. I written damn near articles on here
about how great the storytelling
was in a match. I put that as a over exaggeration
and even then it wasn't meant to be taken serious towards Hailey. Can't believe you even tried to play that.
He's a terrible bumper, I've never seen anything to say he's a good seller, never seen him work a crowd, absolutely zero charisma and so often he looks totally lost in between spots. Never seen anything from him that says he's a strong worker. Worker, not wrestler. He's very good at doing wrestling moves. Working is the stuff in between moves that make the moves matter.
Correction, being a good wrestler or a good worker is putting things in the proper place in a logical sense. That is why many people don't like the Cena Hurcanranna spot because it seems random in a match where both guys are terribly exhausted. Being a good seller is making your opponent looking believable which Elgin happens to do even though he looks like a tank compared to anyone in the indy circuit. I'll give two great examples of a great Elgin sell. 1. Before Ricochet dives over the ring poll to hurt Elgin, Elgin sells a kick as if it dazes the shit out of him. Excab makes a note of this and makes a believable transition to Ricochet having to dive cross country just to hit him.
That kinda spot needs the proper selling to make it look believable that it isn't just a spot. It makes it look believable that Elgin had to get himself some distance from Ricochet due to him getting his bell rung. It makes the crowd believe Elgin may actually be in some trouble thus not only putting Ricochet as a actual threat(Which is remarkable due to the huge size difference) BUT~!
slowly transitions the crowd unknowingly into a spot they can't see coming. Sure, Elgin didn't sell like Ziggler. However, it doesn't make it not a good sell or make him a good seller.
Another example of a great sell or even work of a crowd, biting your hand to focus on a greater pain. This happened in his match with Richards and was during the finishing stretch. Elgin, in a attempt to make the crowd buy a regular Ankle Lock, screams, claws, and showing effort to put over the maneuver. In order to put over this maneuver even more, he makes it seem he tries to to focusing on a greater pain while biting his hand and then motions as if he is going to tap. You know what happens? The crowd totally buys it. Sure you might want to give the credit to the Ankle Lock making the moment but it wasn't. I think Jericho's Walls of Jericho is one of the most over moves in the business but if you got a guy(Victim) to work it like Elgin did the Ankle Lock, it makes the move 20x more believable. The move is already going to be believable in itself but it takes the taker to make it look that much better(Nigel was also great at this).
As for no charisma and looking lost between spots, I say Elgin looks legitimate as a monster in the indy circuit. He, as I said, is a big guy and carries that Aura of a big guy. Doesn't smile, gets extremely angry and makes it seem as if he is actually there to destroy the opponent. As oppose to a guy like Cage who has great strong spots but seems like he is there to have fun. Looking lost may just you on that hand. I can't help that.
The 2 best Elgin matches by far are the ones where there's some sort of story to them. Eddie match was really well structured for an Eddie Edwards vs Michael Elgin match. It was well structured by any means but especially for them 2. Made what they were doing mean something. The Davey match worked thanks to the molten crowd and Elgin working like he had something to prove. The Davey match is a rare case of that style of match just working. They tried the same in PWG and it fell completely flat.
I don't really care for the Edwards match so I'll just take your word for it(Just naming it in my post as a match people here praised). I think it's a "good but never watch again" match for me that didn't do anything for me. The Richards match didn't work because a molten lava crowd however. Crowd was pretty meh during the beginning of the match but it was a match that worked because the story of it was actually very good and how that went upon it. I do not give a flying fuck about their PWG match because it was like the match I was expecting on Showdown in ROH. In the ROH match, it had great storytelling.
Richards wanting to hurt Elgin(His pacing before the match even started gave it away) and that actually leading up to Elgin's work over section when Richards wanted to Tornado DDT him out on the floor. What made Elgin's work over section good was because he was not only dominating Richards but was cutting over Richards come backs every time. I use to hate the Turnbuckle no sell comeback until it actually realized it made sense. Richards was finally getting momentum only for Elgin to cut him off again by slamming him into the turnbuckle and thus leading to Richards having to refute him with a kick. It wasn't the best storytelling comeback(Hence why I gave it the border rating for that and many little reasons) but it was logical. Then you have Richards constantly selling his back, the ongoing theme of actually selling the Powerbomb as a legit match ender, and Elgin monster moments against Richards(Which worked perfectly thanks to Richards body language & facial expressions).
The PWG match didn't have that and worked like a dream match. That's why you saw hardly no one praise it including I.
Listing good matches from someone doesn't automatically mean they're good either. I can list a few good Khali matches. Doesn't make him good. For every good Elgin match you listed there's probably 3 just from 2012 that were bad.
I'll listen reasons, examples, and give you details as to why Elgin is good. It wasn't no coincedence that Elgin happened to be on in a good or great match most of the time. Now I'm not saying Elgin is God's gift to mankind but there has been crappy reps spit on him for what seems like randomly to me. And please, name me quality Khali 2012 performances that stack up with Elgin's.
Don't care for the rest so I'll just snip it.