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Old 03-01-2013, 04:14 PM   #641 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2013 MOTYC Thread

And TAKA & Taichi.
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Old 03-01-2013, 04:15 PM   #642 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2013 MOTYC Thread

Sure. Taichi and his lifelike Anime character goodness.
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Old 03-01-2013, 04:56 PM   #643 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2013 MOTYC Thread

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Originally Posted by Caponex75 View Post
What the fuck do you want him to do? Do a Shooting Star Powerbomb?
And here lies the problem? Being good isn't about what moves you can do. Doing moves is such a minimal aspect of being a great wrestler in reality. Sure Elgin does some cool spots but what else does he do? He's a terrible bumper, I've never seen anything to say he's a good seller, never seen him work a crowd, absolutely zero charisma and so often he looks totally lost in between spots. Never seen anything from him that says he's a strong worker. Worker, not wrestler. He's very good at doing wrestling moves. Working is the stuff in between moves that make the moves matter.

The 2 best Elgin matches by far are the ones where there's some sort of story to them. Eddie match was really well structured for an Eddie Edwards vs Michael Elgin match. It was well structured by any means but especially for them 2. Made what they were doing mean something. The Davey match worked thanks to the molten crowd and Elgin working like he had something to prove. The Davey match is a rare case of that style of match just working. They tried the same in PWG and it fell completely flat.

Listing good matches from someone doesn't automatically mean they're good either. I can list a few good Khali matches. Doesn't make him good. For every good Elgin match you listed there's probably 3 just from 2012 that were bad.

Elgin isn't shit. I wouldn't go that far but he's by no means good. At times he can have a great match when everything clicks and I mean EVERYTHING. In the Davey match EVERYTHING clicked. He doesn't know how to really control a match though and apply anything other than spots to a match. Sadly with the guys on the Indy scene that he's facing right now that isn't likely to improve because they all have a similar problem as long as they keep facing each other they won't improve. The matches he had with Generico. Powerful guy with good spots facing El Generico. Only had good matches with him. EL GENERICO. He isn't shit. He isn't great. He' so so and often ranges from atrocious to sometimes very good.
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Old 03-01-2013, 06:00 PM   #644 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2013 MOTYC Thread

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Bolded is debatable
No it is not. 99 % of pro wrestling matches are not great stories. That statement can be made by someone who watches little to no pro wrestling only and therefor doesn't even have the slightest understading of it.....or has a distorted perception.

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depending on the viewer
Indeed....if the said viewer is seven years old. Lets not kidd ourselves, pro wrestling stories, are, esentially, created in a manner that seven year olds, even the dumbest ones, can understand them. And that's what has made something so bizarre as two grown men pretending to fight successful.

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You said that selling as limb doesn't count as a story, but I think a limb being worked in definitely a story. It establishes and weakness and sets the table for a comeback. If you want me to really name 50 matches that have a limb workover and a comeback I can give them to you. That is more than just Wrestler A vs. Wrestler B and A wins. The selling tells a story. Wrestler A has to overcome Wrestler B's neckwork. that is an extra story than 'just a match'.
I didn't say I wanted you to name 50 matches that tell a story. I wanted matches with GREAT stories. There's a big difference cause I am not arguing that storytelling in pro wrestling doesn't exist.

Here's the thing (oh how I love chanelling my inner Triple H-perhaps it is because I loathe him?) though, selling a limb doesn't establish a weakness per se. You need good SELLING. Without good SELLING, you won't perceive a weakness, you'll perceive shitty SELLING. And, if the SELLING is good, it will affect your enjoyment of the match. So, is it fair to give STORYTELLING credit if it is SELLING that is affecting your enjoyment of a certain match?


But, even if there IS good selling, are you honestly expecting me to belive that just because there is a weakness established and one fighter has to overcome it that it is, in fact, a great story? Really?



Here's my problem with thy use of storytelling (I'm using a random match by example and don't remember what were your thoughts on it btw.)


"Tanahashi vs Okada-WK 7 edition had flawed storytelling"-is a statement that gives me no idea what you're talking about.

"Tanahashi vs Okada-WK 7 edition had flawed selling"-ok. You name a few examples of the "flawed selling". Now there is a factual argument to which I can properply reply to.


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To me, spots for the sake of spots does tell the story of 'wrestler B beats Wrestler A.' I totally agree on that. For a match to be great in my book, I need more to a story than that, and for me, Cena/Punk did not have anything more. Is that a fair way for me to say that?
I just think there is a more precise way to put it. Like, fo instance, if you were to complain about Cena countering a Go 2 Sleep into an STF just seconds after eating a Go 2 Sleep and selling just after Punk had already crawdled to the ropes saying it felt "cheap", I'd get it. You're complaining about a transition with, in your opinion, flawed selling. I'd reply that the selling was actually appropriate, as it sold the importance of the match without devaluating the moves, and was actually quite realistic. But that's just a random example. I just find your point of view very confusing. Like, Tanahashi does legwork all the time. You don't seem to be very high on him. Legwork is "something more" so why aren't you? I don't like Tanahashi at all, just asking. I hope I've made myself clear enough.
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Old 03-01-2013, 06:36 PM   #645 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2013 MOTYC Thread

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Originally Posted by ywall2breakerj View Post
No it is not. 99 % of pro wrestling matches are not great stories. That statement can be made by someone who watches little to no pro wrestling only and therefor doesn't even have the slightest understading of it.....or has a distorted perception.


Indeed....if the said viewer is seven years old. Lets not kidd ourselves, pro wrestling stories, are, esentially, created in a manner that seven year olds, even the dumbest ones, can understand them. And that's what has made something so bizarre as two grown men pretending to fight successful.
Ok, and now's when we go from light-hearted wrestling discussion to you being a pretentious douchebag. If you can't see great storytelling in two or more individuals attempting to make a worked event as exciting and yet simultaneously realistic as possible then that's YP not MP.
Are there elements of camp, silliness or sheer stupidity within the art form? Absolutely, but implying that only children can enjoy it is not only archaic thinking, but flat out wrong.

Your last post automatically negates any other posts you subsequently add to this thread, where I come to learn about/discuss what constitutes great wrestling and/or wrestling matches, because according to you there's no such thing.
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Old 03-01-2013, 06:47 PM   #646 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2013 MOTYC Thread

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Originally Posted by Haley
I like the term of "obviously didn't make the match good" when it thwarts my opinion completely and only elevates yours. Why should I take the rest of this rebuttal seriously now?
>Says this despite me giving a example in the same post. Golly, why should I take the rest of this rebuttal seriously now? Please keep trying to play the victim card.

Quote:
No matter how I feel about Elgin and list my reasons behind the disapproval they're going to be scoffed off in a weak attempt of "my opinion > your's and that's that."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tdsL4kvp_I

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The clear definition is you like Elgin, I don't, and for some reason this is upsetting to you. I love Sami Callihan. Absolutely a huge fan/mark of the guy. When I see some negative feedback towards him I can't say I care a single bit. It is what it is. For those gripes I have my perception and the others have their's. It's a big case of "who cares" in my eyes.
I read Seabs post, actually replied to it, before this and honestly was expecting more. So your excuse is "I shouldn't discuss a wrestler on a wrestling forum". Got ya. As for the latter half, I think I covered the points in my post with Seabs.

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And here lies the problem? Being good isn't about what moves you can do.
Are you really going to pull that card ON ME? No fucking shit cool moves don't matter. I written damn near articles on here about how great the storytelling was in a match. I put that as a over exaggeration and even then it wasn't meant to be taken serious towards Hailey. Can't believe you even tried to play that.



Quote:
He's a terrible bumper, I've never seen anything to say he's a good seller, never seen him work a crowd, absolutely zero charisma and so often he looks totally lost in between spots. Never seen anything from him that says he's a strong worker. Worker, not wrestler. He's very good at doing wrestling moves. Working is the stuff in between moves that make the moves matter.
Correction, being a good wrestler or a good worker is putting things in the proper place in a logical sense. That is why many people don't like the Cena Hurcanranna spot because it seems random in a match where both guys are terribly exhausted. Being a good seller is making your opponent looking believable which Elgin happens to do even though he looks like a tank compared to anyone in the indy circuit. I'll give two great examples of a great Elgin sell. 1. Before Ricochet dives over the ring poll to hurt Elgin, Elgin sells a kick as if it dazes the shit out of him. Excab makes a note of this and makes a believable transition to Ricochet having to dive cross country just to hit him.

That kinda spot needs the proper selling to make it look believable that it isn't just a spot. It makes it look believable that Elgin had to get himself some distance from Ricochet due to him getting his bell rung. It makes the crowd believe Elgin may actually be in some trouble thus not only putting Ricochet as a actual threat(Which is remarkable due to the huge size difference) BUT~! slowly transitions the crowd unknowingly into a spot they can't see coming. Sure, Elgin didn't sell like Ziggler. However, it doesn't make it not a good sell or make him a good seller.

Another example of a great sell or even work of a crowd, biting your hand to focus on a greater pain. This happened in his match with Richards and was during the finishing stretch. Elgin, in a attempt to make the crowd buy a regular Ankle Lock, screams, claws, and showing effort to put over the maneuver. In order to put over this maneuver even more, he makes it seem he tries to to focusing on a greater pain while biting his hand and then motions as if he is going to tap. You know what happens? The crowd totally buys it. Sure you might want to give the credit to the Ankle Lock making the moment but it wasn't. I think Jericho's Walls of Jericho is one of the most over moves in the business but if you got a guy(Victim) to work it like Elgin did the Ankle Lock, it makes the move 20x more believable. The move is already going to be believable in itself but it takes the taker to make it look that much better(Nigel was also great at this).

As for no charisma and looking lost between spots, I say Elgin looks legitimate as a monster in the indy circuit. He, as I said, is a big guy and carries that Aura of a big guy. Doesn't smile, gets extremely angry and makes it seem as if he is actually there to destroy the opponent. As oppose to a guy like Cage who has great strong spots but seems like he is there to have fun. Looking lost may just you on that hand. I can't help that.


Quote:
The 2 best Elgin matches by far are the ones where there's some sort of story to them. Eddie match was really well structured for an Eddie Edwards vs Michael Elgin match. It was well structured by any means but especially for them 2. Made what they were doing mean something. The Davey match worked thanks to the molten crowd and Elgin working like he had something to prove. The Davey match is a rare case of that style of match just working. They tried the same in PWG and it fell completely flat.
I don't really care for the Edwards match so I'll just take your word for it(Just naming it in my post as a match people here praised). I think it's a "good but never watch again" match for me that didn't do anything for me. The Richards match didn't work because a molten lava crowd however. Crowd was pretty meh during the beginning of the match but it was a match that worked because the story of it was actually very good and how that went upon it. I do not give a flying fuck about their PWG match because it was like the match I was expecting on Showdown in ROH. In the ROH match, it had great storytelling.

Richards wanting to hurt Elgin(His pacing before the match even started gave it away) and that actually leading up to Elgin's work over section when Richards wanted to Tornado DDT him out on the floor. What made Elgin's work over section good was because he was not only dominating Richards but was cutting over Richards come backs every time. I use to hate the Turnbuckle no sell comeback until it actually realized it made sense. Richards was finally getting momentum only for Elgin to cut him off again by slamming him into the turnbuckle and thus leading to Richards having to refute him with a kick. It wasn't the best storytelling comeback(Hence why I gave it the border rating for that and many little reasons) but it was logical. Then you have Richards constantly selling his back, the ongoing theme of actually selling the Powerbomb as a legit match ender, and Elgin monster moments against Richards(Which worked perfectly thanks to Richards body language & facial expressions).

The PWG match didn't have that and worked like a dream match. That's why you saw hardly no one praise it including I.



Quote:
Listing good matches from someone doesn't automatically mean they're good either. I can list a few good Khali matches. Doesn't make him good. For every good Elgin match you listed there's probably 3 just from 2012 that were bad.
I'll listen reasons, examples, and give you details as to why Elgin is good. It wasn't no coincedence that Elgin happened to be on in a good or great match most of the time. Now I'm not saying Elgin is God's gift to mankind but there has been crappy reps spit on him for what seems like randomly to me. And please, name me quality Khali 2012 performances that stack up with Elgin's.

Don't care for the rest so I'll just snip it.
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Old 03-01-2013, 07:00 PM   #647 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2013 MOTYC Thread

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Originally Posted by Caponex75 View Post
As for no charisma and looking lost between spots, I say Elgin looks legitimate as a monster in the indy circuit. He, as I said, is a big guy and carries that Aura of a big guy. Doesn't smile, gets extremely angry and makes it seem as if he is actually there to destroy the opponent. As oppose to a guy like Cage who has great strong spots but seems like he is there to have fun. Looking lost may just you on that hand. I can't help that.
I'm on the "looking lost" camp too. Now, I haven't watched much of Elgin but I've never gotten the feeling of a guy who's there to destroy his opponent but rather a guy who is strong as fuck and does impressive shit in the ring. Never got an Aura of anything with the guy.

I might be missing something but this reminds me of when Seabs was loving Sanada's work and I was only seeing blandness.
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Old 03-01-2013, 07:04 PM   #648 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by antoniomare007 View Post
I'm on the "looking lost" camp too. Now, I haven't watched much of Elgin but I've never gotten the feeling of a guy who's there to destroy his opponent but rather a guy who is strong as fuck and does impressive shit in the ring. Never got an Aura of anything with the guy.

I might be missing something but this reminds me of when Seabs was loving Sanada's work and I was only seeing blandness.
Probably just what I see him. I take Elgin as opposing while someone may not. I guess that would be completely subjective.
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They better have a fucking ***** match to end with.
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It better be epic
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YEAH THAT FAKE LESNAR DON'T WANT NOTHING OF TRIPLE H HE'S REAL HE LIFTS WEIGHTS AND BREAKS INTO PEOPLE'S HOUSES LESNAR JUST A BITCH THAT WON SCRIPTED UFC FIGHTS HE CAN'T PLAY THE GAME.

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Old 03-01-2013, 09:40 PM   #649 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2013 MOTYC Thread

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Originally Posted by Caponex75 View Post
>Says this despite me giving a example in the same post. Golly, why should I take the rest of this rebuttal seriously now? Please keep trying to play the victim card.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tdsL4kvp_I

I read Seabs post, actually replied to it, before this and honestly was expecting more. So your excuse is "I shouldn't discuss a wrestler on a wrestling forum". Got ya. As for the latter half, I think I covered the points in my post with Seabs.
I said he 'sucks' and gave my reasons for it. You used no examples as to why you feel Elgin is undeserving of said complaints and threw in some lousy post about moves that was apparently "not" to be taken seriously. Skip the sarcastic crap and get down to brass tacks and nothing would be lost. Throwing in matches that "apparently tore the house down" doesn't count as good examples, fyi. Same point could be used for anybody at anytime.

Youtube video is rather sad. Wonderful rebuttal. The butthurt vibe is really stemming now.

Ok lets jump to conclusions about not discussing a wrestler on a wrestling forum is what I implied by that. Obviously I meant get some thick skin for when someone you enjoy receives negative reviews, kid. Oh no Michael Elgin is not being putting over, I have to make a big stink out of it. That's what is being said here. It makes even less sense considering I have no problem discussing Elgin. Doesn't matter what the connotation is, I'll discuss him plenty. Turns out most of the time it is elaborating on why I disliked his work in his matches.
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Old 03-01-2013, 10:33 PM   #650 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2013 MOTYC Thread

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Originally Posted by HayleySabin View Post
I said he 'sucks' and gave my reasons for it. You used no examples as to why you feel Elgin is undeserving of said complaints and threw in some lousy post about moves that was apparently "not" to be taken seriously.
Besides listing matches and explaining that a strong man should play a strong man? If you took the Shooting Star Powerbomb seriously then that is your own fault. Even reading the name is suppose to give off a glaring wink.


Quote:
Skip the sarcastic crap and get down to brass tacks and nothing would be lost. Throwing in matches that "apparently tore the house down" doesn't count as good examples, fyi. Same point could be used for anybody at anytime.
Except it can't. There aren't that many great Yone matches in two years that can take up two hands and listing matches are a example as they can be evidence to someone not sucking. You sound incredibly salty when discussing a wrestler on a site called Wrestling Forum.

Quote:
Youtube video is rather sad. Wonderful rebuttal. The butthurt vibe is really stemming now.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tdsL4kvp_I

Quote:
Ok lets jump to conclusions about not discussing a wrestler on a wrestling forum is what I implied by that. Obviously I meant get some thick skin for when someone you enjoy receives negative reviews, kid. Oh no Michael Elgin is not being putting over, I have to make a big stink out of it. That's what is being said here. It makes even less sense considering I have no problem discussing Elgin. Doesn't matter what the connotation is, I'll discuss him plenty. Turns out most of the time it is elaborating on why I disliked his work in his matches.
I'm sorry I discuss wrestlers on a wrestling forum. Surely this place wasn't meant to talk about the positives or negatives about wrestlers or their matches. Please forgive me, lady. I mean no harm.
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They better have a fucking ***** match to end with.
Fucking music , dancing , and 360 piledrivers , Maryse sex scene , 450s through tables , shoot star press drop kicks , Rock comes back , Austin comes back

It better be epic
Quote:
Originally Posted by Headliner View Post
YEAH THAT FAKE LESNAR DON'T WANT NOTHING OF TRIPLE H HE'S REAL HE LIFTS WEIGHTS AND BREAKS INTO PEOPLE'S HOUSES LESNAR JUST A BITCH THAT WON SCRIPTED UFC FIGHTS HE CAN'T PLAY THE GAME.

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