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Old 12-23-2012, 11:39 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Default Re: Has Anyone Noticed Something About Indy "breakouts" in recent years

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Old 12-23-2012, 01:36 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Default Re: Has Anyone Noticed Something About Indy "breakouts" in recent years

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wwe plan everything out and leave nothing to chance, their lack of a crystal ball or premenitions kill off any chance they might have taken, i mean who wouldve thought 3:16 would have the reaction it did on the night or afterwards
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Like Danielson or Punk don't love wrestling just as much as Austin did. I'm pretty sure Punk got people talking when he was able to cut a promo the way he wanted to and got people interested that hadn't be in a little bit for a bit before WWE killed that. And you can't tell me that anyone would be remotely as over with that "YES! NO!" gimmick as Danielson is.

And again, it's kind of hard of be adaptive when WWE micro-manages everything and the business as a whole is on a downturn then it was back then. Again, Zack Ryder thought outside the box, got himself reasonably over with his Youtube channel, and instead of running with it and maybe creating a mid-carder that people care about WWE paid lip-service for a month or two before slowly crushing him and his momentum to the point of outside of NYC no one cares anymore about him and he's just another job guy.
I can't win. You guys don't want to get my point.

Every wrestler at any point in the history of the business had to overcome challenges. In the PG-era it's a new set of challenges. You would expect that out of a a generation of indy-wrestlers who has been hugely successful in the indy-scene that one or two of them would impact the business. CM Punk, Bryan Danielsson and their peers are so far a huge disappointment in every business aspect.

I don't know that Austin loved wrestling more than CM Punk but Austin had the brains and drive and the thinking that made him a legend. Punk, Danielsson and co. have shown none of that.
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Old 12-23-2012, 02:57 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Default Re: Has Anyone Noticed Something About Indy "breakouts" in recent years

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I can't win. You guys don't want to get my point.

Every wrestler at any point in the history of the business had to overcome challenges. In the PG-era it's a new set of challenges. You would expect that out of a a generation of indy-wrestlers who has been hugely successful in the indy-scene that one or two of them would impact the business. CM Punk, Bryan Danielsson and their peers are so far a huge disappointment in every business aspect.

I don't know that Austin loved wrestling more than CM Punk but Austin had the brains and drive and the thinking that made him a legend. Punk, Danielsson and co. have shown none of that.
Yes, and that is why Steve Austin is one of the greatest of all time. Do you honestly say that because Punk/Danielson don't compare to the greatest wrestlers in the sport, that they are failures?

This thread is ridiculously scattered now.

Independent wrestling came into prominence when WCW and ECW folded as people looked to promotions away from WWE for their fix of wrestling, I believe. It was around before in many different promotions but with #2 and #3 US wrestling promotions falling down within a year of eachother, a lot of independent wrestling filled the hole that they had left. This hole led to people like Brian Danielson, CM Punk, Samoa Joe and many others getting a massive amount of spotlights shined down upon them. If we didn't have ECW or WCW in the mid-late 90s, guys like Jerry Lynn, Eddie Guerrerro, Chris Benoit, many luchadors and many more would be considered indy guys, just as now anyone who isn't in Japan or with WWE/TNA are considered indy guys in 2012. Would we say in the year 2004 that the likes of CM Punk, Samoa Joe and Brian couldn't, in time, compare to Lynn, Guerrero and Benoit? I don't believe we would.

I believe that wrestlers today who aren't in WWE or TNA, or wrestling away from the USA, get a lot of flack for no reason. Today's premier independent star that hasn't publicly received any notions that they are heading to TNA or WWE is Kevin Steen. He had been a fantastic tag wrestler and has put on great matches, and now he has been a great heel recently and put on great matches across different independent promotions, this is what we want. This is what we had and what we want heading into 2013. There have been a LOT of great matches this last year and just because the wrestlers haven't gone on and headlined PPVs for WWE doesn't mean they deserve to be looked on as wrestler lowering the standards.

OP, and others in this thread, what independent wrestling do you watch? Do you just watch Ring of Honor and CZW or do you seek out what you can? There is talent out there but it's scattered about because there isn't as much need for something brand new as their was when the last generation of stars came through, unless you class TNA as independent wrestling, so we don't have that one promotion that is at the top feeding the wrestling need with the pinacle of talent available which in turn is filtering down into other promotions. Now, in 2012, we have a lot of great wrestling and wrestlers scattered across different promotions.
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Old 12-23-2012, 03:02 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Default Re: Has Anyone Noticed Something About Indy "breakouts" in recent years

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Yes, and that is why Steve Austin is one of the greatest of all time. Do you honestly say that because Punk/Danielson don't compare to the greatest wrestlers in the sport, that they are failures?
No I will spell out my point again. From that entire generation I expect someone to do something for the business. Collectively they have failed.
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Old 12-23-2012, 03:04 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Default Re: Has Anyone Noticed Something About Indy "breakouts" in recent years

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I don't know that Austin loved wrestling more than CM Punk but Austin had the brains and drive and the thinking that made him a legend. Punk, Danielsson and co. have shown none of that.
I've actually just read this again and was amazed by it. I would go so far as to say Brian Danielson, CM Punk and many are just as smart wrestling-wise as Stone Cold and have the same drive. They toiled on the indy circuit for many years with nothing to motivate them, how could they not? Stone Cold was doing what he was doing on an international level, who's to say that 2006 Brian Danielson couldn't have had the same impact given the opportunity? You? There is no way to say otherwise. Your examples Brian and Punk have excelled in an era where they are tethered and tied down and constantly told no, Austin was given free reign. In my eyes, succeeding through perseverance and talent over shackles is just as impressive and should be applauded as much as the ice breaker who was given the opportunity to go and get what he wanted over.

This isn't a bash at Stone Cold or any of them, I just find it illogical that you believe Punk and Brian are failing because they aren't at the forefront of a boom that Stone Cold was, whilst at the same time talking of the shackles that hold them back.
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Old 12-23-2012, 03:13 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Default Re: Has Anyone Noticed Something About Indy "breakouts" in recent years

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Originally Posted by cablegeddon View Post
I can't win. You guys don't want to get my point.

Every wrestler at any point in the history of the business had to overcome challenges. In the PG-era it's a new set of challenges. You would expect that out of a a generation of indy-wrestlers who has been hugely successful in the indy-scene that one or two of them would impact the business. CM Punk, Bryan Danielsson and their peers are so far a huge disappointment in every business aspect.

I don't know that Austin loved wrestling more than CM Punk but Austin had the brains and drive and the thinking that made him a legend. Punk, Danielsson and co. have shown none of that.
how much do YOU profit from the numbers THEY make?

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Originally Posted by Issues_Sunshyne View Post
Yes, and that is why Steve Austin is one of the greatest of all time. Do you honestly say that because Punk/Danielson don't compare to the greatest wrestlers in the sport, that they are failures?

This thread is ridiculously scattered now.

Independent wrestling came into prominence when WCW and ECW folded as people looked to promotions away from WWE for their fix of wrestling, I believe. It was around before in many different promotions but with #2 and #3 US wrestling promotions falling down within a year of eachother, a lot of independent wrestling filled the hole that they had left. This hole led to people like Brian Danielson, CM Punk, Samoa Joe and many others getting a massive amount of spotlights shined down upon them. If we didn't have ECW or WCW in the mid-late 90s, guys like Jerry Lynn, Eddie Guerrerro, Chris Benoit, many luchadors and many more would be considered indy guys, just as now anyone who isn't in Japan or with WWE/TNA are considered indy guys in 2012. Would we say in the year 2004 that the likes of CM Punk, Samoa Joe and Brian couldn't, in time, compare to Lynn, Guerrero and Benoit? I don't believe we would.

I believe that wrestlers today who aren't in WWE or TNA, or wrestling away from the USA, get a lot of flack for no reason. Today's premier independent star that hasn't publicly received any notions that they are heading to TNA or WWE is Kevin Steen. He had been a fantastic tag wrestler and has put on great matches, and now he has been a great heel recently and put on great matches across different independent promotions, this is what we want. This is what we had and what we want heading into 2013. There have been a LOT of great matches this last year and just because the wrestlers haven't gone on and headlined PPVs for WWE doesn't mean they deserve to be looked on as wrestler lowering the standards.

OP, and others in this thread, what independent wrestling do you watch? Do you just watch Ring of Honor and CZW or do you seek out what you can? There is talent out there but it's scattered about because there isn't as much need for something brand new as their was when the last generation of stars came through, unless you class TNA as independent wrestling, so we don't have that one promotion that is at the top feeding the wrestling need with the pinacle of talent available which in turn is filtering down into other promotions. Now, in 2012, we have a lot of great wrestling and wrestlers scattered across different promotions.
besides WWE ARE NOT WRESTLING ANYMORE, THEIR PUBLICIST SAID SO, the guys in charge have no interest in the sport at all

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Old 12-23-2012, 03:19 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Default Re: Has Anyone Noticed Something About Indy "breakouts" in recent years

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No I will spell out my point again. From that entire generation I expect someone to do something for the business. Collectively they have failed.
Do what for the business other than get themselves over, make independent wrestling more relevant than it ever was, help make money for the smaller promotions than has ever been made before, innovate in terms of wrestling movement and psychology, develop styles that have been impressed upon a younger generation, creating themselves as stars and milking their worth as merchandise cows without the promotion of multi-million dollar companies behind them, pushing themselves forward in a sport that was previously made to hold them back, helping create a wrestling boom period within a wrestling lull by making Independent wrestling more entertaining than the wrestling that is worldwide in it's popularity and above all, be completely successful in what they have set out to do, and then moving onto the largest scale company that they could ever work for, being successful in that and helping change the landscape and break the shackles of the sport by being much smaller men that has ever came before in being successful actually be successful, and managing to get themselves over in a way where they could be looked at as the two most over wrestlers in their league?

Or do you think success will only come if they make WWE as popular as it was 15 years ago when wrestlers who are looked upon as Gods were around?

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besides WWE ARE NOT WRESTLING ANYONE, THEIR PUBLICIST SAID SO, the guys in charge have no interest in the sport at all
What? You quoted some paragraphs where I gave my points as to why I believe Independent wrestling has changed and why it's different in 2012, and how it's moving forward, and you reply with something that has no relevance to what I offered? Where did I mention the WWE publicists? I am completely bored of people who not nothing but their points and think they hammer it home in less than 20 words and completely ignore what anyone else says.
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Old 12-23-2012, 03:32 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Default Re: Has Anyone Noticed Something About Indy "breakouts" in recent years

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Do what for the business other than get themselves over, make independent wrestling more relevant than it ever was, help make money for the smaller promotions than has ever been made before, innovate in terms of wrestling movement and psychology, develop styles that have been impressed upon a younger generation, creating themselves as stars and milking their worth as merchandise cows without the promotion of multi-million dollar companies behind them, pushing themselves forward in a sport that was previously made to hold them back, helping create a wrestling boom period within a wrestling lull by making Independent wrestling more entertaining than the wrestling that is worldwide in it's popularity and above all, be completely successful in what they have set out to do, and then moving onto the largest scale company that they could ever work for, being successful in that and helping change the landscape and break the shackles of the sport by being much smaller men that has ever came before in being successful actually be successful, and managing to get themselves over in a way where they could be looked at as the two most over wrestlers in their league?

Or do you think success will only come if they make WWE as popular as it was 15 years ago when wrestlers who are looked upon as Gods were around?
You don't want to get it. You want to make excuses so go ahead. Give me 215 reasons why CM Punk and Danielsson can't come up with the next 3:16.

It's like arguing with a wall. What did I say earlier in this thread? I said this generation of indy-wrestlers just came in and replaced other wrestlers. That's all they did. And you're perfectly happy and fine with that. You have low expectations. You should look at yourself.

So that generations of indy-wrestlers all they did was to get themselves employed? Great!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 12-23-2012, 04:02 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Default Re: Has Anyone Noticed Something About Indy "breakouts" in recent years

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You don't want to get it. You want to make excuses so go ahead. Give me 215 reasons why CM Punk and Danielsson can't come up with the next 3:16.

It's like arguing with a wall. What did I say earlier in this thread? I said this generation of indy-wrestlers just came in and replaced other wrestlers. That's all they did. And you're perfectly happy and fine with that. You have low expectations. You should look at yourself.

So that generations of indy-wrestlers all they did was to get themselves employed? Great!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
They revolutionized and radicalized wrestling completely away from WWE. If that isn't an achievement, then I don't know what is.

You keep asking why the generation of independent wrestlers haven't came up with 3:16, perhaps because they are tether and restrained in what they do a lot more than Stone Cold was.

Also, let's realize that 3:16 wasn't created by Steve Austin. It was used by Jake Roberts when he was playing a born again christian, and was used by Stone Cold as a contradiction to Jake Robert after he defeated him at King of The Ring. Without Jake Roberts and John 3:16, Austin 3:16 would never make sense.

Let's realize that almost everything that came from The Rock wasn't created by The Rock, he recycled a lot of phrases from old Blaxploitation moves.

What I mean is, the crowd got those things over. If 3:16 and DTA got over and are credited to Stone Cold, then why didn't every other little thing he said get over in the same way? Who's to say that if CM punk wasn't around and the same age in 1997, he wouldn't have got the same opportunity? No-one, and no-one can. The crowd at that time was a HUGE part of the show, and they got everything over. The fact that these wrestlers today aren't creating another boom period is as little to do with them as it is to do with the crowd who live in nostalgia. Again, let us realize that the crowds began to dwindle years before the like of Punk, Brian and Joe appeared.

You talk about a talking to a brick wall but you keep saying the same things; Why aren't today's generation of independent wrestlers akin to Stone Cold Steve Austin and his brethren? In my eyes, it's a multitude of reasons. Firstly, because there can never be another Steve Austin/Rock Flair/Hogan, secondly that there are fans who will not let them grow because they always compare them to the greatest of all-time, and thirdly, who's to say given the same opportunities they wouldn't have been able to do what those before them have done?

Also, as an additional point, you say I should look at myself for something I enjoy. Why? Therefore, to contradict, I say you should look at yourself for still wasting your time on something you don't enjoy and by your own words don't believe in.

I don't enjoy Jack Black movies now as much as I used to when I was younger and was a massive fan of his, but I don't watch everyone of his movies knowing how much I will waste my time and then spending more time complaining about how I don't like Jack Black movies and they waste my time.


I will stop posting about this now.

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Old 12-23-2012, 10:21 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Default Re: Has Anyone Noticed Something About Indy "breakouts" in recent years

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You don't want to get it. You want to make excuses so go ahead. Give me 215 reasons why CM Punk and Danielsson can't come up with the next 3:16.

It's like arguing with a wall. What did I say earlier in this thread? I said this generation of indy-wrestlers just came in and replaced other wrestlers. That's all they did. And you're perfectly happy and fine with that. You have low expectations. You should look at yourself.

So that generations of indy-wrestlers all they did was to get themselves employed? Great!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sir...have you read your posts. I have and at no point have you elaborated on your point. You have said multiple times that since this generation of independent talent was a failure since they didn't bring back wrestling,strictly as a business, to a high level. Your argument is incredibly weakened when you mention Steve Austin. When you mention one of the most popular wrestlers of all time in an era that is held in such regard(though lets be honest there is a point where it gets overrated by some people since you can only say something is magical and awesome and such so many times) you are bound to leave 99% of wrestling history failing to measure up. That's not even excuse for CM Punk or Daniel Bryan, just trying to inform you that with that angle you will never convince a soul of what you are saying. Try comparing Punk, Bryan, and Aries to guys like Benoit and Guerrero since they are more similar to those guys. I'm literally not going to even argue your opinion since the measuring stick for success to you is Austin. Its the only true guy you mention I'm pretty sure.
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