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Old 03-07-2012, 08:07 PM   #281 (permalink)
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Default Re: The Top 50 Reasons Why Fans Don't Go to Indie Shows

Have no issue with disloyal women. Some things in wrestling will never change. Stephanie Mcmahon turning on Test and setting up a historic HHH run is an example of a good disloyal women angle. If done right, people will care.
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Old 03-07-2012, 08:20 PM   #282 (permalink)
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Default Re: The Top 50 Reasons Why Fans Don't Go to Indie Shows

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Originally Posted by smokinglizard View Post
Who the hell cares?! Haven't you guys admitted to yourselves yet that nothing important happens in Europe anymore? I mean, if it were, like, 1612, OK, fine, yes, everything of consequence would be happening in Europe. But that was 400 years ago. Now, America is where it's at. Want to do something important? Come to America!

Want to pay a tax to watch TV? Move to Europe!
Well I have to admit the American arrogance still existing is impressive, especially since you live a country with a massive debt to a large amount of other countries and a bad economy.

Also, nothing imporatant happens in Europe anymore, what about the Olympic Games?
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Old 03-08-2012, 07:06 AM   #283 (permalink)
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Default Re: The Top 50 Reasons Why Fans Don't Go to Indie Shows

I'M OUT

This is a ridiculous thread. Your problems with the indies are all entirely superficial things that aboslutely anyone could point out, yet you try and act like you are coming from some position of superior knowledge? You make these points which at first seem quite strong, then back out of them with your little escape clauses. For instance, the fat and thin wrestlers, you stated your problem with them very strongly, then backed out and said you only meant there were 'too many of them', and accused people, rather falsely, of attacking straw men.

Secondly, you have taken the rather absurd decision to try and be a heel on your thread, questioning other posters' intelligence and reading comprehension when you fail to make clear points. These insults are almost always followed by 'buy my book'. WORST. SALESPITCH. EVER. If you really want a good read about booking and improving wrestling, then i recommend Ales Shane's Guide To Pro Wrestling Volume 1. Sadly, it is harder to get a hold of than this guy's book.

Thirdly, you are discouting all of Europe. Yes, i understand that you are dealing with the American indies, but the idea that you cannot learn anything from one of the biggest markets outside of the USA and the spiritual home of catch wrestling is nonsense. Hell, it is the number one market for TNA. Plus your absurd remarks about America being 'where its at' are a few decades out of date. Yes, in the UK we pay a tax for our tv. It produces top quality news, documentaries and entertainment which are shipped all over the world and have no commercials (it pays for the BBC).
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Old 03-08-2012, 11:24 AM   #284 (permalink)
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Default Re: The Top 50 Reasons Why Fans Don't Go to Indie Shows

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Originally Posted by wee bru View Post
I'M OUT

This is a ridiculous thread. Your problems with the indies are all entirely superficial things that aboslutely anyone could point out, yet you try and act like you are coming from some position of superior knowledge? You make these points which at first seem quite strong, then back out of them with your little escape clauses. For instance, the fat and thin wrestlers, you stated your problem with them very strongly, then backed out and said you only meant there were 'too many of them', and accused people, rather falsely, of attacking straw men.

Secondly, you have taken the rather absurd decision to try and be a heel on your thread, questioning other posters' intelligence and reading comprehension when you fail to make clear points. These insults are almost always followed by 'buy my book'. WORST. SALESPITCH. EVER. If you really want a good read about booking and improving wrestling, then i recommend Ales Shane's Guide To Pro Wrestling Volume 1. Sadly, it is harder to get a hold of than this guy's book.

Thirdly, you are discouting all of Europe. Yes, i understand that you are dealing with the American indies, but the idea that you cannot learn anything from one of the biggest markets outside of the USA and the spiritual home of catch wrestling is nonsense. Hell, it is the number one market for TNA. Plus your absurd remarks about America being 'where its at' are a few decades out of date. Yes, in the UK we pay a tax for our tv. It produces top quality news, documentaries and entertainment which are shipped all over the world and have no commercials (it pays for the BBC).
Simmer down.

It's a joke.

In fact the things I said about Europe were so plainly ridiculous, I don't see how anyone couldn't right away understand that it's a joke. Like when Chris Jericho said Canada sucks:



Do you really think Jericho thinks Canada sucks?

Joke.

Talking smack.

For fun.

To be funny.

An appropriate response would have been to either a) laugh, b) ignore, or c) talk some smack back.

I do understand that some people's sense of humor is very different than others. Some people are just completely unable to grasp sarcasm, cynicism, or inside jokes. They're very literal-minded. Their brains are just wired that way. So to those people, yes, you're right, they would find these posts very difficult to understand or unclear.

Quote:
Secondly, you have taken the rather absurd decision to try and be a heel on your thread, questioning other posters' intelligence and reading comprehension when you fail to make clear points. These insults are almost always followed by 'buy my book'. WORST. SALESPITCH. EVER.
Well...you might want to tell that to my book sales and my bank account. While the book certainly isn't a NY Times Bestseller -- it is a niche topic, of course -- book sales have been very brisk. People who are not so literal "get" the humor in it and enjoy it as entertainment.

Which is its intent -- inform and entertain.

For fun...you know?

Quote:
You make these points which at first seem quite strong, then back out of them with your little escape clauses...
Thanks for your input...this discussion is fun...but it's just a matter of clarifying one's position, which, I believe, all human beings do. To try to charge me with using "escape clauses" when I'm just trying to make myself clear is unfair. And kind of silly.

Quote:
This is a ridiculous thread.
I 100% agree! But then again, so is pro wrestling.
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Old 03-10-2012, 06:29 AM   #285 (permalink)
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Default Re: The Top 50 Reasons Why Fans Don't Go to Indie Shows

one more to add to the list

because there are already enough world/heavyweight titles on sky sports why would anyone care about another one that wasnt't simply, BEST IN THE COUNTRY OR CONTINENT, let alone (random array of letters)piece of metal that means i'm the best, OF WHAT EXACTLY?! HUH?!

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Old 03-12-2012, 09:03 PM   #286 (permalink)
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Default Re: The Top 50 Reasons Why Fans Don't Go to Indie Shows

So are we ever going to get the full 50 reasons or is this thread going to be taken over entirely by harsh criticism of the OP and generally ridiculous arguing by all concerned?
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Old 03-12-2012, 09:17 PM   #287 (permalink)
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Default Re: The Top 50 Reasons Why Fans Don't Go to Indie Shows

SmokingLizard really need to speed up the process. I understand anticipation but we really need some more material.
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Old 03-13-2012, 02:31 PM   #288 (permalink)
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Default Re: The Top 50 Reasons Why Fans Don't Go to Indie Shows

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Originally Posted by Mr Deschanel View Post
So are we ever going to get the full 50 reasons or is this thread going to be taken over entirely by harsh criticism of the OP and generally ridiculous arguing by all concerned?
well lets go ahead and list em up
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Old 03-14-2012, 01:52 PM   #289 (permalink)
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Default Re: The Top 50 Reasons Why Fans Don't Go to Indie Shows

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Originally Posted by nevereveragainu View Post
one more to add to the list

because there are already enough world/heavyweight titles on sky sports why would anyone care about another one that wasnt't simply, BEST IN THE COUNTRY OR CONTINENT, let alone (random array of letters)piece of metal that means i'm the best, OF WHAT EXACTLY?! HUH?!
You make a good point. Although I do have to admit, if you're running a wrestling promotion, you have to have a champion. Otherwise, what are the guys wrestling for? They have to be striving for something. But then, as you say, you wind up with 100 million "championships."

Indie wrestling is just way over-saturated.

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Originally Posted by Mr Deschanel View Post
So are we ever going to get the full 50 reasons or is this thread going to be taken over entirely by harsh criticism of the OP and generally ridiculous arguing by all concerned?
Worry not! No matter what happens, you will get all 50 reasons! Unless, that is, I get hit by a bus or something. This is the 21st installment, meaning there are still 29 to go...we're not even half way there! So there's still much, much goodness yet to come. And trust me, I've already mapped out and documented all 50 reasons, and I'm saving the very best for last.

Now, considering how far we've come on this journey, let's reflect for a minute on what we've learned along the way...

1. Some fans here really, really like the two jobbers who call themselves "The Peacock Express." There was a very surprising outpouring of support for the Peacocks when I poked fun at them, which is good for them, as I've just learned that their Facebook fan page has increased from 24 "Likes" to 38. Way to go, guys! You're on your way. Please don't forget me when you make it to the very top. Please endorse my book, Fixing the Indies along the way. You know, I hear "The Peacock Express" is going to be headlining shows in Bug Tussle, Oklahoma! Keep on truckin', guys!

2. Some fans here get really, really angry if you suggest that jiggly, nerdy fat kids who pretend they're wrestlers hurt pro wrestling's image. Like this guy:



You remember him, don't you? His name, as you can see, is Chuck Diamond. I received an update the other day that ol' Chuck received a huge pop at the last show he was on when he stepped through the curtain because of all the grief I've been giving him in "The Top 50 Reasons." One fan in attendance shouted out, "Norm can eat Chuck's [dirty word deleted]!" So good to see Chuck getting such warm support from that sellout crowd of 45.

3. Some fans here get even angrier if you suggest that skinny, nerdy kids who pretend they're wrestlers hurt pro wrestling's image. Like this guy:



You see, guys like the super hero above are perfectly acceptable and don't hurt ticket sales at all because, you see, there is no size requirement in pro wrestling...or so I'm told. Actually, you know, I guess these guys are right. After all, the kid above does sell tickets. His mom and dad clearly buy two.

4. Some fans here believe that using duct tape to repair wrestling rings is A-OK because, hey, it's the indies! It's supposed to suck!

5. One guy even contacted me on Facebook and said, "All you're doing is finding things wrong with indy [sic] wrestling!" Well, duh! It's called, "The Top 50 Reasons Why Fans Don't Go to Indie Wrestling Shows."

6. People keep thinking that because I've started a thread here on a message board that there's no reason to buy my book, Fixing the Indies because, you see, I'm "giving my book away for free" here. Evidently to them it's not possible to write about one thing in a book and then write totally different stuff on a message board.

7. There are guys involved in indie pro wrestling -- wrestlers -- who claim to have been wrestling in the indies for over 10 years and have never seen the girl-turns-against-her-wrestler angle. Wow. Really? I guess that's what happens when you spend most of those 10 years wrestling on your trampoline in your backyard -- there were no girls in sight to play the role.

8. If you're American and you make a joke about Europe, Europeans get really, really, really, really mad. I guess they're sensitive about that or something. USA! USA! USA! I wonder if it works on the Canadians, too? Let's try: Hey, Canadians, Canada sucks! You don't even understand that there are four downs in football, not three!

9. The pretty girl holding that title belt I included in the last installment is named SoCalVal, and she's a "ring girl," not a valet. Her job is to hold title belts and look pretty. Sorry, guys! I officially apologize for getting that wrong. Maybe I should watch wrestling or something and I would know this.

10. Injecting humor and poking at fans in a message board thread is -- according to an 18-year-old who's never written a book, has never wrestled a match, and probably never had a real full time job -- a bad sales tactic. Thanks, dude! Thanks for looking out for me. Any other pearls of wisdom you've acquired in your storied 18 years on earth you'd like to share?

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Originally Posted by USAUSA1 View Post
SmokingLizard really need to speed up the process. I understand anticipation but we really need some more material.
Your wish is my command! Here's installment 21 of 50!

And I apologize for the delay in between installments. I've been very, very busy promoting my new book, Fixing the Indies, available on Amazon and Barnes & Noble!

This is episode 21 of the 50 part series entitled, "The Top 50 Reasons Why Fans Don't Go to Indie Pro Wrestling Shows."

Reason #30: Contract battles.

This past Friday saw the debut of an all-new season of the UFC's hit reality show, "The Ultimate Fighter." If you live somewhere entirely remote -- like under a rock or in Europe -- and are thus unfamiliar with this show, the concept is simple: A bunch of wannabe UFC fighters live together in a house and then compete against each other to win a UFC contract.

The show has been immensely successful, some pundits even going so far as saying that the show saved the UFC from going bankrupt. Whether that's true or not, there's no doubt that the show is a great concept and big money for the UFC.

So how does this relate to why fans don't go to independent pro wrestling shows? Well, stay with me here...

If you've been following the "Top 50 Reasons" up until now (And if you haven't, go back to page 1 of this thread and get caught up!), you know that one of the most vexing, self-inflicted problems with pro wrestling -- especially the indies -- is copycatting. Wherever there is success, pro wrestling will copycat.

Remember when Sarah Palin was chosen as John McCain's VP running mate in the last presidential election? Sure enough, pro wrestling had its own Sarah Palin. Here she is now:



When MTV's idiotic "reality" show, "Jersey Shore" got over like Super Grover, sure enough, TNA gave us the pro wrestling version of that human trainwreck:



So it came as no surprise that when Dana White's "Ultimate Fighter" show got over, pro wrestling had to follow suit, and, voila, WWE delivered us these annoying jackasses:



Yes, folks, it's the Nexus crew. The concept was, well, a complete ripoff of "The Ultimate Fighter" -- a bunch of young wannabe WWE wrestlers joined forces and started agitating for full WWE contracts. Actually, it was a ripoff of "The Ultimate Fighter" and WCW's classic nWo angle, because the way these geniuses decided to land their WWE contracts was by attacking WWE officials and announcers, interfering in main events, spitting in the faces of WWE's star wrestlers, and kidnapping WWE's general manager.

I didn't know that would work. Would it? I mean, could I, like, get a bank loan by going in to my local branch, grabbing the bank manager by his necktie, and dragging him from his desk across the bank floor? Maybe I could get a promotion at my current job by jumping my boss from behind, stuffing him in my car, and refusing to let him go until he agrees to bump my pay up?

You mean to say I've been going about it all wrong for the past 30 years?!

Anyway, you know, to watch this stuff, you either really gotta be stupid or you just have to be giving it a pass left and right. I mean, this is just so insipid.

Anyway, so here we have "The Ultimate Fighter" guys fighting -- literally -- for contracts and in WWE we have "newcomers" committing kayfabe felonies for contracts, so what do we get in the indies?

Sure enough, contract battles! Yes, folks, you read that right -- we now actually have independent pro wrestling promotions -- those wondrous "businesses" where shows are held in condemned National Guard armories and the "stars" are paid $20 a match -- running the contract angle.

I am not making this up.

The indies are actually running angles where their wrestlers "fight" for contracts in their respective indie promotions! Forget the fact that there are no contracts in the indies and the fact that even if there were contracts, who would sign a contract to work for $20 a match?! That would be like Walmart signing old retired guys to contracts to work as greeters and hand out shopping carts.

I've even seen one indie promotion actually issue a "press release" (i.e., a post on a message board) to announce that one of their wrestlers had "asked for his release" from his "contract" and had been "granted" it! I'm not kidding!

I've also seen indies run the good old ladder gimmick match where they hang a briefcase from the ceiling tiles and tell 20 wrestlers that there's a contract inside of it, and the first guy who gets the briefcase gets signed to the contract!

(Never mind the fact that the ceiling is so low, the wrestlers can just reach up and grab the brief case without needing the ladder at all...)

So...wait...let's just suspend all ability to disbelieve and, well, all neuron activity and pretend just for a second that the indie promotion that runs its shows in the abandoned bingo hall and creates a "locker room" by hanging a big sheet of black, shiny garbage bag plastic in front of a hallway actually signs its wrestlers to contracts. Let's just accept that for a second. Well if that's the case, shouldn't the 19 guys who lose the stupid contract-hanging-from-the-ceiling match have to, you know, leave and not come back for the next show? After all, they're not on a contract, right? So why would they be allowed to wrestle for the promotion in the future?!

Oh, I can already hear the brickbats: "Oh, you're just picking indie wrestling apart," and, "You're being too critical," and "Every wrestling promotion uses angles like that nowadays."

Yes, and all roach motels have roaches!

The big kind, the ones with wings and can fly and land on you while your in bed, trying to sleep.

BOTTOM LINE: This is an example of an angle that insults the fans' intelligence. It's just plain stupid to expect fans to believe that wrestlers whose day jobs are making sandwiches at Subway are signed to contracts in the indies. It's just way too great a leap of faith for any marginally intelligent fan to make. It's entirely unrealistic. If we want fans to come back and give indie wrestling a chance, we have to stop insulting their intelligence.

Oh, and by the way -- Super Grover rules! He rules!


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Old 03-14-2012, 02:12 PM   #290 (permalink)
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Default Re: The Top 50 Reasons Why Fans Don't Go to Indie Shows

Ring Of Honor is an independant promotion, and they have contracts. DGUSA/EVOLVE have contracts too.. Probably not the sort of indies you're aiming at, but still - they're indies and they have contracts..
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