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Old 04-07-2012, 06:05 AM   #521 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2012 MOTYC thread

iMPACT Wrestling 2012 04 05:
Kurt Angle - Jeff Hardy - ***
AJ Styles - James Storm - ***1/4
MCMG - LAX - **1/2
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Old 04-07-2012, 06:38 AM   #522 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2012 MOTYC thread

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Originally Posted by Segunda Caida View Post
Its strange, I actually liked Richards' selling for the most part (Elgin's collapse to the mat after two ankle locks was the best bit of incorporating selling into a spot), I mean there were a few instances where he'd get up too quick from a move/run at a quick speed and I'd be about to roll my eyes and expect him to ignore the earlier work and thus kill the story that Elgin was slowly weakening his entire body but to his credit he was always grabbing his lower back before big moves to at least reinforce his body was damaged and thus even if the move in theory wasn't something you'd attempt with a weakened back it at least came off as 'this is something I have to do no matter how much it hurts'. And as I said before, both men sold the exhaustion and wear & tear of the match surprisingly well, actually felt like they were out of energy by the end rather than moving effortlessly like the match had been going 5 minutes.

Still, the opening 2/3rds dragged horribly and the structure was off. I mean Davey's desperation at the start was nice but then his spot where he dragged Elgin round the ringside area lacked that follow up urgency and not two minutes later Elgin took over and started control. I just never felt Richards was sufficiently being beaten to within an inch of his life or that Elgin was in trouble and needed a big spot to take control: the fisherman suplex and powerbomb into the barricade was an awesome transition spot in theory...but Richards needed to have controlled more of the opening before that spot for it to serve as a game changing spot and transition into Elgin taking control.

I fully agree with you however on the superb buildup to the spinning powerbomb, felt like Elgin's offence was perfectly placed in building up to that powerbomb and it came at just the right amount time in the match to feel like a genuine match ender. Also loved the discuss lariat to set up which looked to have killed Davey, felt like one of those classic ROH match enders where someone like Joe would hit a big combo move to finally put the opponent down for the 3 count.
I agree with pretty much everything you liked. The thing is, when I first watched it, I wasn't expecting anything other than the kind of match Davey's been having for damn near a year now, and so I wasn't paying super close attention during the first half or so. I'll rewatch it soon and give my thoughts in a more detailed fashion then.

I doubt I'll change much from this, though: this was the best Richards match of his title run by several miles and shows what he's capable of doing, even if he didn't do it consistently here, and it also showed surprising range, versatility, and psychology from Elgin that he hadn't really shown off previously. It totally exceeded my initial expectations and while it was far from perfect, it gave me some hope for the future of the ROH title picture.
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Old 04-07-2012, 07:27 AM   #523 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2012 MOTYC thread

So melter gave Richards/Elgin a legit 5 star match?!? I can't see these guys putting on a 5 star match. I really can't see Elgin meshing better with davey than guys like strong, omega, Edwards, ad probably a few others. The match just wouldnt have a big fight feel. Plus im sure roh has put on better matches in the past 6 years.Very surprising, I'm going to have to check this out.
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Old 04-07-2012, 07:32 AM   #524 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2012 MOTYC thread

I'd probably give Richards/Elgin a ****1/2 or ****3/4.. I thought it was an awesome match, I just thought it had a slow start which kinda takes away from my rating. Other than that I really enjoyed it, definitely my type of match, nearly nonstop action.
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Old 04-07-2012, 08:30 AM   #525 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2012 MOTYC thread

I personally don't have a proble with Meltzer's ratings at all. He obviously has a certain criteria that has to be met for him to rate a match that high, and it's his own personal criteria. I don't think people should get so annoyed at his ratings since it is subjective and he is pretty much just a fan like those of us in here who rate and analyse matches.
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Old 04-07-2012, 05:24 PM   #526 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2012 MOTYC thread

CM Punk v Mark Henry - Raw 4/2/12
-- All things considered this was perfectly worked. It's not a MOTYC in my mind but they couldn't have put together a better match considering the time it got and the directions they want both guys to go in. Henry looked like a monster talking trash, dominating, and cutting off Punk at every turn. Punk did a great job selling that his championship was in jeopardy and put up a spirited fight with great flurries (made even better by the crowd) and a couple neat desperation spots (really liked the DDT counter to the bear hug). Would've liked a close nearfall or two against Punk before the countout finish to get the crowd really thinking that it might be Henry's night but can't blame them for that. Would love to see a longer version of this on PPV.

***1/2
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Old 04-07-2012, 05:29 PM   #527 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2012 MOTYC thread

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Originally Posted by Segunda Caida View Post
Well apologies guys, but I'm gonna have to be the party pooper on Richards/Elgin.

Davey Richards v Michael Elgin, ROH World Championship, Showdown In The Sun Night II, 03/31/12- NO

A really really strange match all around tbh, there was a lot of things I dug in this match: Elgin coming out looking like a legit tough SOB, the running theme of his power being too much for Davey, Richards actually grabbing his back before doing some spots that could be seen as ignoring the limbwork so as to at least show the viewer he was hurt and both men down the stretch doing a great job of exhaustion selling and showing the continuing effects of the match.

Still the pacing and structure really felt off here, Richards' initial flurry was fine even though I thought it sacrificed a feeling out process and went straight into the action and it only lasting a couple of minutes before Elgin took over set the stage for the opening portion of the match dragging. I mean I enjoy the milking of the babyface shine period but this felt like a bad opening, if this was a WWE match with someone like Mysterio you'd expect some speed/power spots to show off the contrast and much of the first 10 minutes seemed like one guy having some brief form of control before a flurry of strikes and the other guy having control. Have to mention as well some of Davey's strikes were bad here, his kicks are generally fine but he can't really pull off convincing forearm strikes that look to have a lot of effect and that's a major problem when you're facing a bigger opponent, its part of why Punk doesn't always make a great face in peril because some of his offence looks really bad against bigger man and can really bring you out of the match. The fisherman suplex on the floor and powerbomb into guardrail combo was an excellent transition spot in theory...but Davey hadn't shined in the opening portion at all really and as a result it never felt like a game changer in the match, especially as the next few minutes seemed to plod a bit with Elgin's control never reaching the heights I expected. He did some nice stuff but here is where you'd expect a total shitkicking of Richards to take place and for them to build and build to the comeback but it never really came. They had some mini strike exchange flurries and then Richards attempted the somersault powerbomb in the corner which led to the Top Rope Dragon Suplex spot.

Now this next bit further irked me, a brilliant spot for Elgin to win over the crowd but executed with a few problems:

a) there was zero build to that sort of spot, it was the sort of spot you'd expect to be one of the last in the match but once Elgin kicked out we had a good 10 minutes of less believable near falls occurring (the eventual finish looking particularly weak). I liked the initial struggle over the spot but again Richards despite looking hurt had still hardly taking the extended workover to build to such an emphatic comeback....and him going straight into an Ankle Lock rather than sell the kickout further annoyed me, especially as Elgin wasn't in the hold long enough to create a believable near fall.
b) furthermore Elgin hadn't been sufficiently weakened for the spot to feel organic in the match. Had Davey built a flurry of offence and gradually worn Elgin down AND then hit this desperation spot it would have felt so much better. Whilst I find such a move stupid to be kicked out of, had they worked the multiple kicks finish straight afterwards I would have at least enjoyed Elgin looking like a beast and the move essentially being the ending even if it didn't immediately lead to the count. As it was despite turning the crowd up a notch it felt like a wasted spot down the finishing stretch when counters were being traded, though Elgin throughout the match did a great job of looking worn down by the tempo they were working.

Some of the strike exchanges bothered me as they tend to do, again bar the execution looking bad they felt poorly timed in the match although I did like Elgin seemingly winning every one which played into the power story which was constantly recurring in the match. The combo leading into the sitout powerbomb nearfall was terrific and brilliantly timed by Elgin, it helped he'd gradually worn Richards down the entire match and the way they worked him countering Richards' offence into that sick lariat before finally hitting his move was terrific...but the minute Richards kicked out I sort of lost interest because he never really got in a sustained comeback to sufficiently weaken Elgin.

The powerbomb kickout was super because it felt like a genuine match ender and the culmination of Elgin's offence but Davey had been limited to kicks and a couple of top rope spots as his offence and as a result Elgin never looked to be on the ropes in my opinion. Actual finish also felt quite flat after everything that had been kicked out of beforehand, had they maybe moved certain moves around I'd have dug the finishing run more but as a result it didn't work as well for me.

So aye, there was a lot of things I enjoyed in this match which surprised me but the plodding structure and lack of a clear beginning-middle-end really hurts this match IMO. It felt very your turn my turn in who got onto offence and as a result there was a lack of clear build into the finish, though some of the spots won the crowd over regardless of the pacing and build. Richards' selling was nice though I'd have loved him to have worked his injury into a spot like Elgin did after the repeated ankle locks but what we got was ok, there were a few moments where he'd blow it off to work an exchange but there wasn't a point in the match where I thought he'd truly no sold the earlier work so props to him. I just wasn't really engaged with the opening 2/3rds of the match and with the final finishing run feeling overdone and lacking in placement I was never fully 'hooked'. I can see why the match has its admirers although if I'm being honest it never screamed 'epic' to me at all, like I've never enjoyed the Richards/Edwards matches or Richards/Black but some of the sequences I could at least buy as being awe inspiring that people would look past any structural issues and just be wowed by the wrestling. The pacing and plodding nature here though never even felt to me like the wrestling I was watching was awe-inspring, its certainly better than a lot of other Richards matches I've seen and Elgin looked impressive given my limited viewing of him but as a MOTYC.....I just can't see what made the match so incredible.

A rating would be hard right about now, the actual work wasn't bad but the structure was really off to me and definitely something that with the right tweaking could have lifted the match into something a lot more. I dunno **3/4-***1/4 for Elgin getting a good showcase, the fans being won over into the finishing stretch, some nice selling of the wear and tear by both men and Nigel's commentary...but with a better beginning and middle this would be pushing a much higher rating.
This sums up my feelings, and a bit more politely as well. Parts of this were excellent, but ultimately only an OK match. **1/2-**3/4
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Old 04-07-2012, 06:29 PM   #528 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2012 MOTYC thread

I definitely see the criticisms of the Davey/Elgin match and there was a section of the match I absolutely hated, but for me there was enough awesome stuff in the match for a higher rating. I definitely don't think it would have been anywhere near as good without Nigel being ridiculously amazing on commentary and the crowd being so into it which are two things that definitely can add to a match, and in this case, both were so awesome that they REALLY added to it for me. On a rewatch I could end up lowering my rating which I do all the time.
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Old 04-07-2012, 06:58 PM   #529 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2012 MOTYC thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Segunda Caida View Post
Well apologies guys, but I'm gonna have to be the party pooper on Richards/Elgin.

Davey Richards v Michael Elgin, ROH World Championship, Showdown In The Sun Night II, 03/31/12- NO

A really really strange match all around tbh, there was a lot of things I dug in this match: Elgin coming out looking like a legit tough SOB, the running theme of his power being too much for Davey, Richards actually grabbing his back before doing some spots that could be seen as ignoring the limbwork so as to at least show the viewer he was hurt and both men down the stretch doing a great job of exhaustion selling and showing the continuing effects of the match.

Still the pacing and structure really felt off here, Richards' initial flurry was fine even though I thought it sacrificed a feeling out process and went straight into the action and it only lasting a couple of minutes before Elgin took over set the stage for the opening portion of the match dragging. I mean I enjoy the milking of the babyface shine period but this felt like a bad opening, if this was a WWE match with someone like Mysterio you'd expect some speed/power spots to show off the contrast and much of the first 10 minutes seemed like one guy having some brief form of control before a flurry of strikes and the other guy having control. Have to mention as well some of Davey's strikes were bad here, his kicks are generally fine but he can't really pull off convincing forearm strikes that look to have a lot of effect and that's a major problem when you're facing a bigger opponent, its part of why Punk doesn't always make a great face in peril because some of his offence looks really bad against bigger man and can really bring you out of the match. The fisherman suplex on the floor and powerbomb into guardrail combo was an excellent transition spot in theory...but Davey hadn't shined in the opening portion at all really and as a result it never felt like a game changer in the match, especially as the next few minutes seemed to plod a bit with Elgin's control never reaching the heights I expected. He did some nice stuff but here is where you'd expect a total shitkicking of Richards to take place and for them to build and build to the comeback but it never really came. They had some mini strike exchange flurries and then Richards attempted the somersault powerbomb in the corner which led to the Top Rope Dragon Suplex spot.

Now this next bit further irked me, a brilliant spot for Elgin to win over the crowd but executed with a few problems:

a) there was zero build to that sort of spot, it was the sort of spot you'd expect to be one of the last in the match but once Elgin kicked out we had a good 10 minutes of less believable near falls occurring (the eventual finish looking particularly weak). I liked the initial struggle over the spot but again Richards despite looking hurt had still hardly taking the extended workover to build to such an emphatic comeback....and him going straight into an Ankle Lock rather than sell the kickout further annoyed me, especially as Elgin wasn't in the hold long enough to create a believable near fall.
b) furthermore Elgin hadn't been sufficiently weakened for the spot to feel organic in the match. Had Davey built a flurry of offence and gradually worn Elgin down AND then hit this desperation spot it would have felt so much better. Whilst I find such a move stupid to be kicked out of, had they worked the multiple kicks finish straight afterwards I would have at least enjoyed Elgin looking like a beast and the move essentially being the ending even if it didn't immediately lead to the count. As it was despite turning the crowd up a notch it felt like a wasted spot down the finishing stretch when counters were being traded, though Elgin throughout the match did a great job of looking worn down by the tempo they were working.

Some of the strike exchanges bothered me as they tend to do, again bar the execution looking bad they felt poorly timed in the match although I did like Elgin seemingly winning every one which played into the power story which was constantly recurring in the match. The combo leading into the sitout powerbomb nearfall was terrific and brilliantly timed by Elgin, it helped he'd gradually worn Richards down the entire match and the way they worked him countering Richards' offence into that sick lariat before finally hitting his move was terrific...but the minute Richards kicked out I sort of lost interest because he never really got in a sustained comeback to sufficiently weaken Elgin.

The powerbomb kickout was super because it felt like a genuine match ender and the culmination of Elgin's offence but Davey had been limited to kicks and a couple of top rope spots as his offence and as a result Elgin never looked to be on the ropes in my opinion. Actual finish also felt quite flat after everything that had been kicked out of beforehand, had they maybe moved certain moves around I'd have dug the finishing run more but as a result it didn't work as well for me.

So aye, there was a lot of things I enjoyed in this match which surprised me but the plodding structure and lack of a clear beginning-middle-end really hurts this match IMO. It felt very your turn my turn in who got onto offence and as a result there was a lack of clear build into the finish, though some of the spots won the crowd over regardless of the pacing and build. Richards' selling was nice though I'd have loved him to have worked his injury into a spot like Elgin did after the repeated ankle locks but what we got was ok, there were a few moments where he'd blow it off to work an exchange but there wasn't a point in the match where I thought he'd truly no sold the earlier work so props to him. I just wasn't really engaged with the opening 2/3rds of the match and with the final finishing run feeling overdone and lacking in placement I was never fully 'hooked'. I can see why the match has its admirers although if I'm being honest it never screamed 'epic' to me at all, like I've never enjoyed the Richards/Edwards matches or Richards/Black but some of the sequences I could at least buy as being awe inspiring that people would look past any structural issues and just be wowed by the wrestling. The pacing and plodding nature here though never even felt to me like the wrestling I was watching was awe-inspring, its certainly better than a lot of other Richards matches I've seen and Elgin looked impressive given my limited viewing of him but as a MOTYC.....I just can't see what made the match so incredible.

A rating would be hard right about now, the actual work wasn't bad but the structure was really off to me and definitely something that with the right tweaking could have lifted the match into something a lot more. I dunno **3/4-***1/4 for Elgin getting a good showcase, the fans being won over into the finishing stretch, some nice selling of the wear and tear by both men and Nigel's commentary...but with a better beginning and middle this would be pushing a much higher rating.
I like Dave Meltzers review better. Meltzers review was more organic and built up properly than your review.
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Old 04-07-2012, 07:00 PM   #530 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2012 MOTYC thread

Well Meltzer's opinion is fact after all...
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