[Legend]

It's pretty general, but obviously there are the main offenders. I just get very, very annoyed when someone gets hounded for liking a particular match/wrestler. There's debate and then there's just elitist snobbery. I'm sure you know what I mean, though, it's prevalent in all forms of criticism.

[WOOLCOCK]

Ahhh fair enough, yeah I'm in complete agreement. I mean I definitely differ with a lot of people these days about 'great matches', e.g my numerous discussions with fans of Angle, Davey, Michaels and many others.

I'd never mock someone for liking a match, though it does bug me when people laugh when others rate a match much lower and dismiss others opinions as just hating a match for the sake of it. Reminds me of that discussion Jawbreaker was involved where he argued people couldn't just hide behind liking the match as their opinion, but rather when called upon to discuss why they enjoyed a particular match to offer the best explanation so as to allow for a proper discussion about the potential flaws in the match that meant others had a lesser opinion of the same match.


Though I want it on record that if anyone watches Lawler v Dundee LLT 30/12/85 and comes away thinking it sucks donkey balls I will hunt them down and strike down with merciful vengeance

[bigbuxxx]

Originally Posted by Yeah1993

He thought the Armaggedon 6-man HIAC was ****1/2. I thought it was dogshit.

glad i'm not alone on this match (i've seen a lot pimp this and play it up). it was just boring.

[jawbreaker]

going to rewatch Richards/Elgin because on a first watch I had it at ****1/4. Loved Richards as the increasingly desperate champ, thought they built magnificently to Elgin's powerbomb, and was pleasantly surprised that they didn't lose the crowd as much as I thought they would with all the nearfalls.

flag sabbath is pretty dead on, as usual. Can't find his post but it got my take on it pretty much perfectly.

[bigbuxxx]

just watched Elgin vs Richards and I'd throw it slightly above Naito/Okada for my MOTY so far. kinda disappointed with the finish. much like in taker/hhh they had to end it in such an obvious spot where you knew it was going to be finsher > 3 count. just end the thing on the high note ffs and don't overkill everything.

[ViolenceIsGolden]

I loved that Mark Henry/CM Punk match on Raw. One of the best performances of Henrys career how he worked the injured rib and played the dominant strong man to perfection throwing around Punk like a rag doll. The finish was booked perfectly too. Great way to utilize a count out finish which is usually a bad thing.

[Yeah1993]

Originally Posted by Segunda Caida

Not a clue why I thought it was Joe/Kobashi now.

Probably because he gave that five stars, too.

So yeah, four ROH fivers from him:

Joe/Punk II
Joe/Kobashi
DG 6-man
Richards/Elgin

[Zatiel]

Originally Posted by 777

Just thought I'd be one of the few to put Jericho/Punk as my number one Mania match. Thought the stipulation made the first segment interesting with Jericho in the Foleyesque position of letting Punk beat on him trying to entice the DQ.

I've seen a lot of posts claiming the crowd was dead, but I got the impression that the audience, like me, were watching the 'wrestling' intently, more akin to a Japanese crowd, which if my impressions are correct is a feat in itself given the boisterous nature of the fans.

Because I expected a lot from this match, I in turn expected to be let down with the result, however when the match was finished I found myself very pleased with what I had just witnessed.

Wanted to get behind you on this. Might be my MOTY right now, and definitely my favorite match from Mania.

I think I view crowds differently from most people. Generally I feel a crowd can add to a match, but can't detract from the match itself - it's either a net plus, or the crowd deserves to be removed from the equation. These guys have been treated as second-class stars behind Rock, Cena, HHH, HBK and Undertaker, and they were slotted after the Hell in a Cell match already burned down the building. Their match is not guilty for lacking Steve Austin or some other insane legacy. Not having the crowd into it at the start was not their fault, nor does it detract from the match they wrestled.

It reminded me of the amazing Danielson Vs. Styles match from Main Event Spectacles where the audience was simply too burned out from crazy stuff and a long night to get into a technical wrestling match. In ways Main Event Spectacles was a worse spot to be in, but following End of an Era with Shawn Michaels bouncing around and infinite weapons shots was unenviable.

I said "nor does it detract from the match they wrestled" because without a doubt they wrestled the best match of the night. Punk bumped and sold like a madman, but actually took fewer dangerous falls than HHH and Undertaker - they just framed them to make them matter more. All the stuff with Punk's back and Jericho trying to work into his Walls variation was great. I found the stipulation cheesy, but Jericho set up all the teases as unique, so it didn't get redundant, and soon enough they progressed to the meat of the match. Punk finally capturing Jericho in the G2S and screaming "Best in the World" had more personality than HHH stumbling into the Tombstone or Cena goofing on the People's Elbow. And I really liked those two matches.

I've heard the two spent months putting the match together. While it's not a Savage/Steamboat masterpiece, the level of thought did show. It was just great stuff. Jericho as a coward, Jericho as an opportunist, Jericho as dangerous, Punk as vengeful, Punk as vulnerable, Punk as triumphant - every phase of the match worked swimmingly.

[WOOLCOCK]

Originally Posted by jawbreaker

going to rewatch Richards/Elgin because on a first watch I had it at ****1/4. Loved Richards as the increasingly desperate champ, thought they built magnificently to Elgin's powerbomb, and was pleasantly surprised that they didn't lose the crowd as much as I thought they would with all the nearfalls.

flag sabbath is pretty dead on, as usual. Can't find his post but it got my take on it pretty much perfectly.

Its strange, I actually liked Richards' selling for the most part (Elgin's collapse to the mat after two ankle locks was the best bit of incorporating selling into a spot), I mean there were a few instances where he'd get up too quick from a move/run at a quick speed and I'd be about to roll my eyes and expect him to ignore the earlier work and thus kill the story that Elgin was slowly weakening his entire body but to his credit he was always grabbing his lower back before big moves to at least reinforce his body was damaged and thus even if the move in theory wasn't something you'd attempt with a weakened back it at least came off as 'this is something I have to do no matter how much it hurts'. And as I said before, both men sold the exhaustion and wear & tear of the match surprisingly well, actually felt like they were out of energy by the end rather than moving effortlessly like the match had been going 5 minutes.

Still, the opening 2/3rds dragged horribly and the structure was off. I mean Davey's desperation at the start was nice but then his spot where he dragged Elgin round the ringside area lacked that follow up urgency and not two minutes later Elgin took over and started control. I just never felt Richards was sufficiently being beaten to within an inch of his life or that Elgin was in trouble and needed a big spot to take control: the fisherman suplex and powerbomb into the barricade was an awesome transition spot in theory...but Richards needed to have controlled more of the opening before that spot for it to serve as a game changing spot and transition into Elgin taking control.

I fully agree with you however on the superb buildup to the spinning powerbomb, felt like Elgin's offence was perfectly placed in building up to that powerbomb and it came at just the right amount time in the match to feel like a genuine match ender. Also loved the discuss lariat to set up which looked to have killed Davey, felt like one of those classic ROH match enders where someone like Joe would hit a big combo move to finally put the opponent down for the 3 count.

[Bubz]

Originally Posted by Bruce L

Finally watched Okada/Naitō. Really good stuff. Okada's talent doesn't quite seem fully-formed yet, but he definitely knows how to carry himself like a champion and hold up his end of a great match. There were a few too many instances for my liking of Okada blatantly favoring the leg at points when Naitō hadn't done anything to it in a while, and I'm not sure I like Naitō having so many counters to the Rainmaker before it's been more established as a lethal finisher, but these were hardly fatal flaws. My MOTY so far, though I'm really interested to see Richards/Elgin once Showdown in the Sun hits DVD. ****½

Thats called long term selling and Okada did it amazingly in the match. One of the reasons I have it rated so high is because Okada would always sell the leg whether Naito was on offence or not.

I also loved the finishing stretch, it didn't last long, but the transition into the lariat was amazing and everything Okada did was focussed on the neck.