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post #501 of 2789 (permalink) Old 04-06-2012, 10:33 AM
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Re: The 2012 MOTYC thread

Just because someone has been doing something for a long time (Meltzer rating matches) it does not automatically mean he is better than everyone else at it - especially when it is something as subjective as this. For the football (soccer) fans amongst us, Emile Heskey has been playing football longer than Lionel Messi - which one is better?

mind fuck.

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post #502 of 2789 (permalink) Old 04-06-2012, 10:43 AM
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Re: The 2012 MOTYC thread

Exactly, I mean I can appreciate why ROH fans are bringing up the match getting *****. Meltzer isn't renowned for handing them out especially in US Wrestling and I'm sure this would make only the second ROH match after Joe/Kobashi to get the full 5? Or it was that DG 6 Man from Supercard of Honor that got the full 5 from Meltzer which wouldn't surprise me as its right in line with what he considers 'a great match'.

I just don't see why people try to argue about his rating meaning anything more than what it is. Its obviously good for ROH that their company put on a match that wowed one of the leading external figures in Wrestling, and as a result can join an elite club of matches that the renowned Meltzer considers to be perfect. However in context its only his opinion at the end of the day and doesn't mean much else, its not a set in stone ***** match because its impossible in such a subjective context to get a match that everyone can agree is the perfect match.

Some people love stiff wrestling while others are turned off by it, some seek inspiration from the sequences whereas others look for the character work and storytelling beyond the spots when assessing a match quality etc etc.
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post #503 of 2789 (permalink) Old 04-06-2012, 11:01 AM
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Re: The 2012 MOTYC thread

Yeah, I cannot stand 90% of DGUSA matches but I'd understand why some people love them - say I'm in the 'business' for 30 years and I say that a DGUSA match is terrible, because of what I prefer, does that mean my opinion means more than anyone else's here? It is only because he writes for a leading wrestling publication that it is seen in such a way - he has a tool for his opinions. You'll get people saying that Taker/HHH is less than *** but then say that his Elgin/Davey rating is spot on - so which one is he right on? Or is he actually neither right nor wrong on either of them?

This is basically pointless though as the same argument can also apply to whether or not you see Meltzer's ratings as the holy grail or whether or not you see them on par with, if not lower than someone like Segunda (whose opinions I'd actually value more as at least there's no CLEAR bias there).

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post #504 of 2789 (permalink) Old 04-06-2012, 11:07 AM
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Re: The 2012 MOTYC thread

yes @ DG 6-man + Joe/Punk II

I haven't actually given star ratings for however long, and I'd be lying if I said I'm not completely interested in what Dave gives these matches (though not moreso than a lot of others), but basing an opinion off of another opinion is really out there. Maybe I'm reading wrong, but it sounds like some would either hold off on their rating until Dave's come out or alter it depending on what his actually are.

He thought the Armaggedon 6-man HIAC was ****1/2. I thought it was dogshit.

It's a good comparison to your own rating if nothing else.

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post #505 of 2789 (permalink) Old 04-06-2012, 11:16 AM
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Re: The 2012 MOTYC thread

Damn how did I forget about Punk/Joe II. Not a clue why I thought it was Joe/Kobashi now.

@Vader, excellent post. Like I said I can understand why people are maybe ecstatic that Meltzer loved an ROH match so much, since even if his opinion actually counts for very much bar it being his own personal opinion, it is coming from a respected Wrestling fan who many seem to hold on a pedastal high above anyone else. Personally I just see his ratings as I do Seabs', one person watching and giving their personal opinion on a wrestling match. No-one can ever conclusively prove a match is perfect, hell I could totally see some people thinking the AJPW mid 90s classics as being too slow, or not understanding the psychology behind finisher kick outs playing off of prior matches. It doesn't diminish their standing if such a low opinion exists, but rather seeks to re-affirm that wrestling is entirely subjective.
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post #506 of 2789 (permalink) Old 04-06-2012, 11:26 AM
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Re: The 2012 MOTYC thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Segunda Caida View Post
Damn how did I forget about Punk/Joe II. Not a clue why I thought it was Joe/Kobashi now.

@Vader, excellent post. Like I said I can understand why people are maybe ecstatic that Meltzer loved an ROH match so much, since even if his opinion actually counts for very much bar it being his own personal opinion, it is coming from a respected Wrestling fan who many seem to hold on a pedastal high above anyone else. Personally I just see his ratings as I do Seabs', one person watching and giving their personal opinion on a wrestling match. No-one can ever conclusively prove a match is perfect, hell I could totally see some people thinking the AJPW mid 90s classics as being too slow, or not understanding the psychology behind finisher kick outs playing off of prior matches. It doesn't diminish their standing if such a low opinion exists, but rather seeks to re-affirm that wrestling is entirely subjective.
I know what you mean. Meltzer has his own things that he likes to see in a match. Everyone has those so it's not like this is some fundamental flaw. I think his ratings are worthwhile because he has so many of them though. It lets you look at the big picture and compare matches to each other from the same person. I think that's where Meltzer's ratings have some value. I mean if you come onto this forum and give a match ***1/2 it's kind of hard to get anything out of that when I don't know what matches you've given similar ratings to.
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post #507 of 2789 (permalink) Old 04-06-2012, 11:35 AM
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Re: The 2012 MOTYC thread

That is a good point there actually, you do know where he stands on certain matches which does create a situation where you're expecting him to love/hate a certain match. I mean the minute HHH/Taker was over I knew he was going to be really high on it, plus him being such a well known figure certainly does enhance his legitimacy to some.
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post #508 of 2789 (permalink) Old 04-06-2012, 12:26 PM
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Re: The 2012 MOTYC thread

WWE Wresltemania XXVIII
Triple H vs. The Undertaker - Hell In A Cell Match
****1/4

CM Punk vs. Chris Jericho
***3/4

The Rock vs. John Cena
****

WWE RAW 02/04
CM Punk vs. Mark Henry
****

My 2013 MOTYs so far:

1. Katsuyori Shibata vs. Tomohiro Ishii - NJPW G1 Climax 04/08 *****
2. Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Kazuchika Okada - NJPW Invasion Attack 07/04 *****
3. Brock Lesnar vs. CM Punk - NO DQ Match - WWE Summerslam ****3/4
4. Katsuyori Shibata vs. Hirooki Goto - NJPW Dominion 22/06 ****3/4
5. KENTA vs. Katsuhiko Nakajima - NOAH 05/10 ****1/2
6. John Cena vs. Daniel Bryan - WWE Summerslam ****1/2
7. Suwama vs. Go Shiozaki - 2/3 Falls Match - AJPW 14/07 ****1/2
8. Kota Ibushi vs. Shinsuke Nakamura - NJPW G1 Climax 04/08 ****1/2
9. Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Tomohiro Ishii - NJPW G1 Climax 02/08 ****1/2
10. Kobashi, Akiyama, Mutoh & Sasaki vs. KENTA, Shiozaki, Kanemaru & Maybach - NOAH Final Burning 11/05 ****1/2

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Last edited by rafz; 06-08-2012 at 03:01 PM.
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post #509 of 2789 (permalink) Old 04-06-2012, 02:12 PM
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Re: The 2012 MOTYC thread

Irony = some of the people who argue for a subjective approach to wrestling give others shit for liking a particular match. That's not subjectivism.
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post #510 of 2789 (permalink) Old 04-06-2012, 02:24 PM
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Re: The 2012 MOTYC thread

Is that a general statement Legend, or directed at posters in particular?
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