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Old 12-25-2012, 06:38 PM   #2501 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2012 MOTYC thread

All right fuck, I tried to do this on my own but I won't. Someone give me a definitive list of puro to watch from 2012. Matches, full shows, if you have ***3/4+ lists and stuff. Don't care. I tried to find a bunch of crap on my own and my head hurts. I don't know what to watch or how much I should watch. I will give you the green rectangle of holiness if I don't need to spread it around. I may even posts thoughts in the puro thread of some of the stuff I watch.
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Old 12-25-2012, 06:56 PM   #2502 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2012 MOTYC thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nervosa View Post
I know there are other patterns, I just have a really hard time calling a singles match a MOTY without it. Do you think you could give some examples of some truly great matches from the past several years that didn't follow that formula? I am legitimately trying to see things outside of my usual perspective.
From this year:

- Fox/Callihan matches
- Mack/Elgin
- Gargano/Fox (EVOLVE 13)
- Fish/Fox (EVOLVE 14)
- Fox/Davis (EVOLVE 15)
- Generico/DelSol trilogy
- Mondo/Younger (TOD 11)
- Elgin/Sami
- Mack/Sami
- MASADA/Joker (Tangled Web 5)

Now, there are people who hate some of those matches, but I really like them, and they're all ***1/2+, IMO. Sure, there are face-in-peril segments, but they're not done in the "epic comeback" manner, IIRC.


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Originally Posted by Yeah1993 View Post
All right fuck, I tried to do this on my own but I won't. Someone give me a definitive list of puro to watch from 2012. Matches, full shows, if you have ***3/4+ lists and stuff. Don't care. I tried to find a bunch of crap on my own and my head hurts. I don't know what to watch or how much I should watch. I will give you the green rectangle of holiness if I don't need to spread it around. I may even posts thoughts in the puro thread of some of the stuff I watch.
Okay, you fuck, one at time, one at time. Everyone will feed you with well known matches, so I'm gonna give you the obscure ones.

Here's Sekimoto/Hino I: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xuh...2#.UNpIZqwfg1s
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Old 12-25-2012, 07:04 PM   #2503 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2012 MOTYC thread

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Originally Posted by Nervosa View Post
I know there are other patterns, I just have a really hard time calling a singles match a MOTY without it. Do you think you could give some examples of some truly great matches from the past several years that didn't follow that formula? I am legitimately trying to see things outside of my usual perspective.
Storytelling is overrated in match analysis. It's not supposed to be over the top and in your face, subtle is the best way to execute it (hence I like to use the term narrative instead-and it sounds cooler as well). The "story" of two Kensuke/Sugiura matches from last year was them hitting each other really hard in the head/chest. Is it really fair to award matches on something that common rather on the actual EXECUTION of it throughout the match? The 23/7 one probably had more violence overall, but the Global League one had a better structure and a hotter finish, thus resulting in a slightly better wrestling match, in my humble opinion. Another reason I'm mentioning those matches-they had very little control. STRIKE EXCHANGE. One goes down. STRIKE EXCHANGE. Another goes down. Throw in a few suplexes into the mix occasionally. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Finish. Many considered those matches strong MOTYCs. If you're talking control segments, layout seems like a much better term. Not saying there isn't a "story" in a match per se but the term is used for everything and anything these days.
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Old 12-25-2012, 09:34 PM   #2504 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2012 MOTYC thread

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Originally Posted by JoeRulz View Post
From this year:

- Fox/Callihan matches
- Mack/Elgin
- Gargano/Fox (EVOLVE 13)
- Fish/Fox (EVOLVE 14)
- Fox/Davis (EVOLVE 15)
- Generico/DelSol trilogy
- Mondo/Younger (TOD 11)
- Elgin/Sami
- Mack/Sami
- MASADA/Joker (Tangled Web 5)

Now, there are people who hate some of those matches, but I really like them, and they're all ***1/2+, IMO. Sure, there are face-in-peril segments, but they're not done in the "epic comeback" manner, IIRC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ywall2breakerj View Post
Storytelling is overrated in match analysis. It's not supposed to be over the top and in your face, subtle is the best way to execute it (hence I like to use the term narrative instead-and it sounds cooler as well). The "story" of two Kensuke/Sugiura matches from last year was them hitting each other really hard in the head/chest. Is it really fair to award matches on something that common rather on the actual EXECUTION of it throughout the match? The 23/7 one probably had more violence overall, but the Global League one had a better structure and a hotter finish, thus resulting in a slightly better wrestling match, in my humble opinion. Another reason I'm mentioning those matches-they had very little control. STRIKE EXCHANGE. One goes down. STRIKE EXCHANGE. Another goes down. Throw in a few suplexes into the mix occasionally. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Finish. Many considered those matches strong MOTYCs. If you're talking control segments, layout seems like a much better term. Not saying there isn't a "story" in a match per se but the term is used for everything and anything these days.
Thanks guys, this gave me a lot to chew on. I think I understand what you guys are saying a lot more.

So when analyzing matches with very little control, what makes any one better than another? Quality of spots, or flow, or what, exactly? You mentioned execution, which makes sense, but again I go back to Richards/Elgin which didnt seem to have execution problems but was universally panned. I honestly don't think I know how to analyze matches without control other than thinking to myself 'that was cool.' I was just curious how you guys do that.
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Old 12-25-2012, 10:21 PM   #2505 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2012 MOTYC thread

The Elgins/Richards style of match is a match type that will never appeal to me. Seeing things like supexes into a powerbomb into an ankle lock is, how do we wrestling fans put it, having my intelligence insulted. I am able to appreciate other stories apart from the typical heel beats down on the face and babyface makes his comeback. To me it's the most engaging form of storytelling. Especially in a hardcore match type environment.

But I'm able to enjoy other works as well. I enjoyed Tanahashi/Suzuki a lot and it a match taht I have no problem in getting MOTY. Although it was kind of worked like a control segment type match. The psychology was just fantastic in that match. From the limb work to the little things like Suzuki pulling on that bandage (and biting it) the match was just great. And of course it incorporated the one-ups-man-ship style of puro that many enjoy.

Matches where it's just Wrestler A going STRIKE, STRIKE, STRIKE, STRIKE, and then he just stands there while Wrestler B does some STRIKE, STRIKE, STRIKE, STRIKE of his own bore the crap out of me but I can understand why people like it.

The style of wrestling, and I'm going to sound arrogant here but it wouldn't be my opinion if I tried to sugar coat, I can' understand how anyone could enjoy is the typical indie style match where it's all about big moves and high spots. I guess I understand why people like it, I mean it looks cool to see a top rope suplex followed up by 2 stiff elbows in the corner followed by a double powerbomb followed by an ankle lock (referring to Richards/Edwards BITW here). But to me it just looks dumb really and it's hard to take a match like that seriously. There's no emotional investment and I'm not one of those fans that's inclined to believe that I must go "1-2-ohhhhh" every time a wrestler pins someone and they kickout. It's not automatic that I must care about a pinfall, you have to get me to care about it and quite frankly if a combination like that doesn't end the match, then nothing else but a cannon ball shot to the face would end it.

So yeah if that style of wrestling doesn't appeal to you, don't try to force yourself to like it. That's what I used to do. I really tried to give indie and puro a chance but meh. If someone recommends a match, I'll watch it but other than that I don't go out of my way looking for it.
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Old 12-25-2012, 10:21 PM   #2506 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2012 MOTYC thread

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Originally Posted by Nervosa View Post
This is a really good point, but I will say that since then, most people seem to have ended up agreeing with me on matches like the one you mentioned in addition to both Taker/Trips matches and the like. These days, its pretty rare that I ever see a match promoted without control, so I was just wondering if maybe I missed something that illustrates what people like about that format. If Eddie/Davey is really the best example, I guess its just hopeless for me to ever like that kind of match.
I don't know if it's the best example; it's just the most obvious example I can think of right now of a match you hated that the majority (including me) thought was great. It's true that opinion on it has soured in the past year-and-a-half, but it seems to me that the majority of people who've "learned" to dislike it did so out of a more general learned distaste for Davey matches or some such, rather than for the reasons why you hated it from the start. And again, I seem to remember the reason you hated it from the start being its non-adherence to a formula you say you're trying to see beyond. That might not be the best match for you to revisit for the start of such a project, but think of a match you disliked for similar reasons but with less of a visceral hatred; trying to examine it in a new light might be illuminating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nervosa View Post
Thanks guys, this gave me a lot to chew on. I think I understand what you guys are saying a lot more.

So when analyzing matches with very little control, what makes any one better than another? Quality of spots, or flow, or what, exactly? You mentioned execution, which makes sense, but again I go back to Richards/Elgin which didnt seem to have execution problems but was universally panned. I honestly don't think I know how to analyze matches without control other than thinking to myself 'that was cool.' I was just curious how you guys do that.
I've said this before, but I'll reiterate for purposes of this particular discussion: I view pro wrestling first and foremost as a fake sport, rather than a fake sport. Therefore, it's very rare that I'll dislike a pro wrestling match for "not telling a story," because every one does: "Two guys are gonna fight. Who's gonna win?" The scripted, pre-determined, performative aspects of pro wrestling allow for more layers to be added to this story, and for it to be told in a variety of different ways, but that's always the key story; it's the one that's always being told, and there are so many different ways to tell it that it seems odd to me to think that only one of them is any good. The "underdog fighting from behind" story isn't the only way to generate emotion and engagement on the audience's part; it's not even necessarily the best way.

Quality of spots absolutely matters to me, though I care more about presentation than impact or difficulty to pull off. Flow is huge. Execution is even bigger; for my part, I love Davey/Elgin and that's a big part of the reason why.

The thing that probably matters most to me in terms of matches that most people don't consider good from a "story" standpoint and degrade for the "MOVEZ" factor is performance -- not of the moves themselves (though that absolutely matters) but of character. And I don't mean gimmick or persona, but the more basic level of "Do I believe in this person as a competitor who's doing everything he has to do to win a match?" That's why I'm a lot less bothered by no-selling and fighting spirit" than most on this board; if it's something I see real athletes doing all the time, not only does it not bother me when I see it in pro wrestling, it actually bothers me quite a bit when I don't see it. The way I've explained it before is that I see two kinds of "hurt" in real sports: The kind where you can continue, and the kind where you can't, and the first kind doesn't look much like being hurt at all. That goes double for sports in which taking bumps is just part of the routine, and when pro wrestling tries to portray a different way of working, it makes suspension of disbelief very difficult for me. (Just as a for-instance: I've fallen on my head in the way most "head drop" moves work. It hurt like hell, but if I was trying to win a competition and running on adrenaline when I got hurt like that, it'd take a few such drops before I was hurt enough not to at least try to kick out, and I'm not a particularly tough guy. That's not to say I need to see double-digit head drops before I can believe in a guy staying down for the count; just that it doesn't particularly bother me when a Davey Richards comes roaring back to life after a big superplex spot or whatever. And while John Cena's Superman act can strain credulity even in that regard, it's why I had no problem with him winning the Lesnar match.) I cut some older American wrestling a lot of slack in this regard, because most of the best practitioners -- the Flairs, the Steamboats, et al -- do so many other things so well, but in modern wrestling, that's what I look for. (Puro seems to have this problem a lot less than American wrestling, especially American indy wrestling, which is why it tends to be US indies that produce most of the most controversial matches in this type of discussion.)

So that's my two cents, which I'll admit seems fairly different from most posters on this board, even the ones who've liked long-control-segment-free matches that you've hated. It's entirely possible this all sounds very stupid to you, but hopefully it at least sheds some light on a way of looking at that type of match.

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Old 12-25-2012, 10:22 PM   #2507 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2012 MOTYC thread

Oh and just in case anyone wants to know my hate for indie wrestling, it has nothing to do with me being a smart ass and trying to play a know it all by talking about ring psychology and all that shit. I remember when I first started watching indie wrestling the chain wrestling used to blow me away. I used to love to see the chain wrestling. Then, overnight, I just suddenly started to notice strange things. This was before I even knew there was such a thing called ring psychology. I was watching a CHIKARA event from 2004 and the match just felt weird. It had the chain wrestling I loved but suddenly I didn't love it anymore. They would chain wrestle and put the other guy in a sub ( a very painful sub btw) and then they'd just get up and start chain wrestling again. Now I knew the term selling at the time so I obviously noticed a lack of selling. The I started to question why one minute he was going for the arm, the other the leg, then the neck, then the arm.

But I still never really took it, you know. I still continued to watch indie wrestling. Things started to just feel weirder and weirder the more I watched though. There was this Petey Williams vs Kazarian (I believe) match that basically went 90 mph. Now before I used to watch all the X DIvision matches and sat in awe. On this occasion, however, I took the match off in 5 minutes. I just didn't like it.

Yet, I still continued to watch it. Thne one day, I downloaded a PWG 2005 show and that's when I think I had seen enough. The match was Richards (I'm noticing something here ) and some other guy. The thing is, this match was really good or should I say the first ten minutes were good. The guy spent a lot of time working Richards's arm and I really sank my teeth into the arm work. It was really suspension of belief and for a while I felt like if I were actually watching something real. Then, suddenly, Richards just ignores every thing. I don't think I need to explain what I mean by that. And it was definitely a head scratching moment.

Again, I had no knowledge of the term ring psychology. So, basically, ring psychology was something I discovered on my own. No one told me about it. It just came automatically. If I'm watching a match where a guy spends 10 minutes working an arm, obviously, the illusion is broken the moment you start using that arm to pick him up and go into beast mode. Another thing, I started having a problem. I soon realized that more or less everyone on the indies had that same type of gimmick. Every match someone is known for their kicks. It's like, GET ORIGINAL. There's 1000 guys out there who are known for their stiff kicks what makes you so special.

Bottom line is, everything just came together on their own. Well eventually I learned that there was a thing called ring psychology and I must say after watching Behind Closed Doors Jake Roberts, it really, really smartened me up on it. I know that I'm just the indy hater around here but I just felt it necessary to explain why so the next time I don't come off as hating indy wrestling for hating indy wrestling's sake. The thing is, to this day I'm still willing to give it a try. When ROH got their new TV deal earlier this year I tuned in for about 4 or 5 weeks. I even gave them yet another chance for 2 months in July and August but it's jsut not my cup of tea.
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Old 12-25-2012, 10:31 PM   #2508 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2012 MOTYC thread

I have to know which Chikara show from 2004 this was.
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Old 12-25-2012, 10:36 PM   #2509 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2012 MOTYC thread

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Originally Posted by Stocking Filled w/HAYLEY JOY~! View Post
I have to know which Chikara show from 2004 this was.
God, I really freaking can't remember. I downloaded a entire 2002-2004 pack. I can't even remember who was in the match tbh. Maybe it was Quackenbush. I think it was him and some spanish dude. I'm sorry but I really can't remember at all.
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Old 12-25-2012, 10:38 PM   #2510 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2012 MOTYC thread

Really incredible insight, guys. Thank you all for contributing.

Richards and Elgin has to be the most divisive match this year. It has just weathered every side of every opinion. I'm really looking forward to rewatching it sometime this week.
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