Originally Posted by Stocking Filled w/HAYLEY JOY~!
Maybe I just wasn't clear and that's what got you mixed up. Not necessarily does matches back and forth lack a control segment. I know in one of the Kobashi vs Misawa matches there was arm work, but it was done in a way that I wouldn't say falls under some other matches I've seen in Puro or Indie where the arm work has the pace slowed completely down - insert post control segment - and the match breaks loose. With Kobashi vs Misawa it all flowed into one long continuous flow that was at a pretty heavy, consistent pace. That's my perception of it. Davey vs Edwards had zero aspects of that. Where it was full tilt the entire time and came off more as a giant blur instead of a fast paced fusion where multiple segments were thrown in and all done so well they intertwined seamlessly.
I haven't seen Generico/Ibushi, but I'm almost certain the reasoning behind it is what I stated before: sometimes the no standout control segment type match with lots of action work and sometimes it doesn't. It's vague and leaves a LOT to be open, but it's probably the best and truest way to elaborate something on a more general sense for overall matches. Once I watch Generico/Ibushi and collect my thoughts on it, I'll describe what it is I liked/disliked about it. I'm sure selling came into play with the match if it was full tilt. Ibushi sold all of Generico's moves well in the first match. Only the arm work control segment felt pointless.
Oh, btw, I'll chuck this in. I don't like matches that have a control segment for the hell of it. If there is no point for it, then cut the bullshit and go nuts with the action. No sense in building to it when the point of a control segment is to create a comeback AND incorporate damage done to a specific area. I know that personally I'd take a tiny bit of nonsensical action (not much) over pointless control segments that have no place in the match whatsoever.
Ah, I understand a bit more now, thank you for clarifying. I think I am separating two different things that you think aren't necessary exclusive.
For me, I don't see a story in a match with no control. All matches with no control look the same, and at that point, I am just judging the coolness of spots rather than an actual story. Your discussion of the importance of 'flow' helps a little bit, and I totally understand how a lot of matches shift gears much too suddenly, without flow.
For me, a match with no control segment and a back-and-forth match are the exact same thing. My mistake is that was a bad assumption.
I guess even our definitions of selling could be completely different. Is selling just showing pain, favoring a limb, or being unable to recover with your own offense for a while? For me, that third one is as important as the other two, and if a whole match is just two guys hitting spots and counters, as I think Ibushi/Generico was, I have a hard time calling that good selling. I mean, when it comes to brass tax, Generico makes everything look great just by how be bumps and emotes physically, which is awesome. Even when I think he is recovering too quickly, I could never say he isn't selling. But When Ibushi nails a huge moves and Generico immediately counters the very next thing, it makes me think the previous move must not have been as effective as it looks.
I should also clarify, to go along with your last paragraph a bit, that I don't think undercard matches necessarily need control segments, and I think tag matches fall under a different realm of evaluation, so I don't need a control segment every time. But in a top singles match, if there's no control, it seems to morph into a 'spot and counter' exhibition more than a match with a story.