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Old 12-25-2012, 12:52 AM   #2461 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2012 MOTYC thread

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Originally Posted by Nervosa View Post
Even this year, people are talking about what an elite worker he is. I know this may get me in trouble, but I'll take Elgin every single day over Eddie, and to me, everything people hate about Davey, Eddie does worse.

Also, I gotta give a big thumbs down to Ibushi/Generico. You know I love you, Bubz, but I'm sorry, 'COUNTERZ!!!' is not a story. I love counters as much as the next guy: nothing makes me mark out more, usually. But that is literally all there was to this match. A negligible lack of any kind of control and then just two guys going back and forth for most of the match. I know that compared to most on this board, I require a control session to really enjoy a singles match, so maybe that's why I disliked it so much. But if a match ends up being back-and-forth through the entirety of the match, its likely I'll hate it, which is why I hate almost all of Eddie Edwards' matches. I simply saw no story at all here.

From my understanding, people hated Elgin/Davey because there was very little selling behind the random moves and momentum switches. Even so, what little control there was in the backwork was more than anything here. I have only seen both of these matches once, but I continue to be confused by matches like this being loved while Elgin/Richards was hated. Quite frankly, I am baffled that this is a MOTY candidate.
Yeah, I'm one who's not gonna concur with that. I'll gladly take Eddie Edwards over Michael Elgin every day.

I'm on Generico/Ibushi II from this year. First match was really fun. Not crazy about the lack of selling by Ibushi with the arm. It made that part of the match feel like nothing mattered till the finishing stretch. Other than that it was good.

I also have no complaints if match lack a control segment. If it is balls to the wall, then I'm down. As long as it's done right. Davey/Edwards wasn't if you ask me. I've seen some that were. I'm considering King's Road matches to be along this same type. Flat out action the moment the bell rings. So if Generico vs Ibushi is that equivalent in a fast paced, high counter form, then I'll probably love it.

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I think I vaguely remember No Limit.

I think I just need the right matches to watch Young Bucks. Most of their stuff I've seen was the TNA stuff and I just didn't love it.

One of my friends that's really into wrestling absolutely hates Davey so he'd probably get a kick out of it.
Only about 2 matches with Bucks in TNA were really noteworthy. vs Guns at No Surrender & Bound For Glory. BFG was AWESOME.

Oh then it might have to be a must.
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Old 12-25-2012, 12:53 AM   #2462 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2012 MOTYC thread

Okay what's some good "other wrestling" I can watch?
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Old 12-25-2012, 12:55 AM   #2463 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2012 MOTYC thread

Is King's Road considered synonymous with no control segment? I was not under this impression, at all.

Even so, what is the difference, then? To me, with no control segment, there is no comeback, and its very hard to develop a story after that. You said Davey/Eddie wasn't 'done right,' but I guess I'm asking where does one 'controlless' match succeed where another fails?
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Old 12-25-2012, 01:04 AM   #2464 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2012 MOTYC thread

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Okay what's some good "other wrestling" I can watch?
El Generico vs Sara Del Rey from Chikara Hot Off The Griddle.



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Originally Posted by Nervosa View Post
Is King's Road considered synonymous with no control segment? I was not under this impression, at all.

Even so, what is the difference, then? To me, with no control segment, there is no comeback, and its very hard to develop a story after that. You said Davey/Eddie wasn't 'done right,' but I guess I'm asking where does one 'controlless' match succeed where another fails?
Most of the time the King's Road matches are fairly even. Lots of bombs being thrown often with a flow that tends to go back and forth. Never said there were no control segments. Please don't put words in my mouth.

As for explaining it, well it's not really so cut and dry with an explanation. When you see a match like a Kobashi vs Misawa just tear it up in 25 minutes of pure action be great, then you see Davey vs Edwards in a 30+ minute match, which is full tilt, just come off as if something was wrong. It depends on the talent in the ring of course. Proof proven that not everyone can go out for an extended amount of time and unleash everything they have. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. When you have the right people out there selling and working a match correctly things look good. You know, basic wrestling 101 comprehension.
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Old 12-25-2012, 01:17 AM   #2465 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2012 MOTYC thread

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Originally Posted by Stocking Filled w/HAYLEY JOY~! View Post
Most of the time the King's Road matches are fairly even. Lots of bombs being thrown often with a flow that tends to go back and forth. Never said there were no control segments. Please don't put words in my mouth.

As for explaining it, well it's not really so cut and dry with an explanation. When you see a match like a Kobashi vs Misawa just tear it up in 25 minutes of pure action be great, then you see Davey vs Edwards in a 30+ minute match, which is full tilt, just come off as if something was wrong. It depends on the talent in the ring of course. Proof proven that not everyone can go out for an extended amount of time and unleash everything they have. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. When you have the right people out there selling and working a match correctly things look good. You know, basic wrestling 101 comprehension.
Sorry for putting words in your mouth, that certainly wasn't my intention. And maybe I'm really mixed up here, but a match that is back and forth all the way through would, by default, be lacking a control segment, correct? In fact, you mention selling....but if every move can immediately be countered throughout the entire match, is it really selling? I don't mind back and forth aspects of a finishing run, but I think if there isn't a control segment and a comeback, the finishing run means very little. In other words, if the whole match feels like a finishing run, I feel like it takes the air out of the finish.

See for me, the Kobashi/Misawa matches always had a workover to establish control and comeback. I don't remember any of their 4 big singles encounters ever being so back-and forth that there was never control, which is what I saw in Ibushi/Generico and Elgin/Richards. A lot of people just like action, so it doesn't bother them, but for me I kinda need control in order to show a story. when people can say they hate Elgin/Richards but love Ibushi/Generico, it causes me to wonder about the difference.

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Old 12-25-2012, 01:33 AM   #2466 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2012 MOTYC thread

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Originally Posted by Nervosa View Post
Sorry for putting words in your mouth, that certainly wasn't my intention. And maybe I'm really mixed up here, but a match that is back and forth all the way through would, by default, be lacking a control segment, correct? In fact, you mention selling....but if every move can immediately be countered throughout the entire match, is it really selling? I don't mind back and forth aspects of a finishing run, but I think if there isn't a control segment and a comeback, the finishing run means very little. In other words, if the whole match feels like a finishing run, I feel like it takes the air out of the finish.

See for me, the Kobashi/Misawa matches always had a workover to establish control and comeback. I don't remember any of their 4 big singles encounters ever being so back-and forth that there was never control, which is what I saw in Ibushi/Generico and Elgin/Richards. A lot of people just like action, so it doesn't bother them, but for me I kinda need control in order to show a story. when people can say they hate Elgin/Richards but love Ibushi/Generico, it causes me to wonder about the difference.
Maybe I just wasn't clear and that's what got you mixed up. Not necessarily does matches back and forth lack a control segment. I know in one of the Kobashi vs Misawa matches there was arm work, but it was done in a way that I wouldn't say falls under some other matches I've seen in Puro or Indie where the arm work has the pace slowed completely down - insert post control segment - and the match breaks loose. With Kobashi vs Misawa it all flowed into one long continuous flow that was at a pretty heavy, consistent pace. That's my perception of it. Davey vs Edwards had zero aspects of that. Where it was full tilt the entire time and came off more as a giant blur instead of a fast paced fusion where multiple segments were thrown in and all done so well they intertwined seamlessly.

I haven't seen Generico/Ibushi, but I'm almost certain the reasoning behind it is what I stated before: sometimes the no standout control segment type match with lots of action work and sometimes it doesn't. It's vague and leaves a LOT to be open, but it's probably the best and truest way to elaborate something on a more general sense for overall matches. Once I watch Generico/Ibushi and collect my thoughts on it, I'll describe what it is I liked/disliked about it. I'm sure selling came into play with the match if it was full tilt. Ibushi sold all of Generico's moves well in the first match. Only the arm work control segment felt pointless.

Oh, btw, I'll chuck this in. I don't like matches that have a control segment for the hell of it. If there is no point for it, then cut the bullshit and go nuts with the action. No sense in building to it when the point of a control segment is to create a comeback AND incorporate damage done to a specific area. I know that personally I'd take a tiny bit of nonsensical action (not much) over pointless control segments that have no place in the match whatsoever.
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Old 12-25-2012, 01:43 AM   #2467 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2012 MOTYC thread

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Originally Posted by Stocking Filled w/HAYLEY JOY~! View Post
El Generico vs Sara Del Rey from Chikara Hot Off The Griddle.





Most of the time the King's Road matches are fairly even. Lots of bombs being thrown often with a flow that tends to go back and forth. Never said there were no control segments. Please don't put words in my mouth.

As for explaining it, well it's not really so cut and dry with an explanation. When you see a match like a Kobashi vs Misawa just tear it up in 25 minutes of pure action be great, then you see Davey vs Edwards in a 30+ minute match, which is full tilt, just come off as if something was wrong. It depends on the talent in the ring of course. Proof proven that not everyone can go out for an extended amount of time and unleash everything they have. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. When you have the right people out there selling and working a match correctly things look good. You know, basic wrestling 101 comprehension.
McQueen has advised against Chikara
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Old 12-25-2012, 01:44 AM   #2468 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2012 MOTYC thread

FUCK Queeny. He doesn't know what he's missing.
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Old 12-25-2012, 01:46 AM   #2469 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2012 MOTYC thread

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Originally Posted by Stocking Filled w/HAYLEY JOY~! View Post
Maybe I just wasn't clear and that's what got you mixed up. Not necessarily does matches back and forth lack a control segment. I know in one of the Kobashi vs Misawa matches there was arm work, but it was done in a way that I wouldn't say falls under some other matches I've seen in Puro or Indie where the arm work has the pace slowed completely down - insert post control segment - and the match breaks loose. With Kobashi vs Misawa it all flowed into one long continuous flow that was at a pretty heavy, consistent pace. That's my perception of it. Davey vs Edwards had zero aspects of that. Where it was full tilt the entire time and came off more as a giant blur instead of a fast paced fusion where multiple segments were thrown in and all done so well they intertwined seamlessly.

I haven't seen Generico/Ibushi, but I'm almost certain the reasoning behind it is what I stated before: sometimes the no standout control segment type match with lots of action work and sometimes it doesn't. It's vague and leaves a LOT to be open, but it's probably the best and truest way to elaborate something on a more general sense for overall matches. Once I watch Generico/Ibushi and collect my thoughts on it, I'll describe what it is I liked/disliked about it. I'm sure selling came into play with the match if it was full tilt. Ibushi sold all of Generico's moves well in the first match. Only the arm work control segment felt pointless.

Oh, btw, I'll chuck this in. I don't like matches that have a control segment for the hell of it. If there is no point for it, then cut the bullshit and go nuts with the action. No sense in building to it when the point of a control segment is to create a comeback AND incorporate damage done to a specific area. I know that personally I'd take a tiny bit of nonsensical action (not much) over pointless control segments that have no place in the match whatsoever.
Ah, I understand a bit more now, thank you for clarifying. I think I am separating two different things that you think aren't necessary exclusive.

For me, I don't see a story in a match with no control. All matches with no control look the same, and at that point, I am just judging the coolness of spots rather than an actual story. Your discussion of the importance of 'flow' helps a little bit, and I totally understand how a lot of matches shift gears much too suddenly, without flow.

For me, a match with no control segment and a back-and-forth match are the exact same thing. My mistake is that was a bad assumption.

I guess even our definitions of selling could be completely different. Is selling just showing pain, favoring a limb, or being unable to recover with your own offense for a while? For me, that third one is as important as the other two, and if a whole match is just two guys hitting spots and counters, as I think Ibushi/Generico was, I have a hard time calling that good selling. I mean, when it comes to brass tax, Generico makes everything look great just by how be bumps and emotes physically, which is awesome. Even when I think he is recovering too quickly, I could never say he isn't selling. But When Ibushi nails a huge moves and Generico immediately counters the very next thing, it makes me think the previous move must not have been as effective as it looks.

I should also clarify, to go along with your last paragraph a bit, that I don't think undercard matches necessarily need control segments, and I think tag matches fall under a different realm of evaluation, so I don't need a control segment every time. But in a top singles match, if there's no control, it seems to morph into a 'spot and counter' exhibition more than a match with a story.

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Old 12-25-2012, 01:51 AM   #2470 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2012 MOTYC thread

I'll give it a go soon.

might even review it!
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