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Old 11-23-2012, 06:02 AM   #2041 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2012 MOTYC thread

Finlay was horrible in that match. Slow and out of shape. Anyone who says otherwise is just saying different for the sake of being different.

I liked some of Finlay matches on his indy tour. But the Cult of Finlay is really tiresome.
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Old 11-23-2012, 06:03 AM   #2042 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2012 MOTYC thread

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Originally Posted by Hailsabin View Post
True that. While I should have specified the rock being aimed at more lower level indie promotions, Davey's no sell saves my claim regardless.

I'm not sour on the whole US indie scene. I do think they've taken a blow via losing a lot of their top stars to the bigger companies though. Only original big names that seem to remain are Colt Cabana, El Generico, & Kevin Steen. Everyone else who is good is fairly new or just now breaking out. (Adam Cole, Ricochet, Super Smash Bros, etc) Differing opinions between you and I here, although I knew you haven't been too keen on the US indie market for a bit. Or at least this year. I'd say the only hooks in that world right now, for me, is Chikara & PWG. With random workers scattered elsewhere. Warming up more to EVOLVE & Dragon Gate: USA.

I do realize the irony of some of my examples too. Generico, Steen, & Super Smash Brothers are all Canadian. They work frequently for US indie promotions though so, meh. Screw it.
The guys I had listed were:
Adam Cole
El Generico
Kevin Steen
Young Bucks
Super Smash Brothers
Sami Callihan
Luke Gallows
Jerry Lawler
Finlay
ACH

and that's all that I'd consider very good workers on the US Indies right now. Gallows, Finlay and Lawler are basically done for now too. Yes to Ricochet too but he's full time in Japan so I wouldn't really consider him an Indy guy now.

The biggest problem imo is the severe lack of vets for these new guys to work with. There's no Joe or a Danielson or a Aries or a Nigel to pair these new guys with promise with to elevate them to another level. Look at Tyler Black when he first broke through in ROH. He was a decent guy with potential who guys like Danielson and McGuinness made look like a legit star. Would Black have ever got over as more than a tag guy if them 2 weren't around? Debatable but I'd say unlikely. You look at the US Indies right now and there's nobody other than Generico who can fit into that role of taking a lesser guy and getting the most out of him to make him look like a great worker even if he isn't. Take Gargano for example. Gargano's a guy who's got the potential to be a great worker on the Indies but all the guys he works with are around his level so he can't progress any higher without a superhuman solo effort. Working with guys like Chuck Taylor and Jon Davis won't make him a great worker. Working with guys like Danielson and co would have made him a great worker by now though. All you have to do is watch Gargano's match with Danielson from 2010 and you'll see my point of how a guy like Danielson can take a decent worker, use all his positives and then use all of his attributes to make the guy look better than he already is and then use the experience for that guy to develop from it. There's an old wrestling phrase which is "you're only as good as your opponent". Basically in order for you to look good, you have to make your opponent look good. A guy like Chuck Taylor can't make a guy like Johnny Gargano look better than he is. Flair and Danielson were/are masters of doing that. How many Indy guys has Danielson had the best matches of their carears with? How many guys made Sting and Luger look as great as they did when they faced Flair?
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Old 11-23-2012, 06:13 AM   #2043 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2012 MOTYC thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seabs View Post
The guys I had listed were:
Adam Cole
El Generico
Kevin Steen
Young Bucks
Super Smash Brothers
Sami Callihan
Luke Gallows
Jerry Lawler
Finlay
ACH

and that's all that I'd consider very good workers on the US Indies right now. Gallows, Finlay and Lawler are basically done for now too. Yes to Ricochet too but he's full time in Japan so I wouldn't really consider him an Indy guy now.

The biggest problem imo is the severe lack of vets for these new guys to work with. There's no Joe or a Danielson or a Aries or a Nigel to pair these new guys with promise with to elevate them to another level. Look at Tyler Black when he first broke through in ROH. He was a decent guy with potential who guys like Danielson and McGuinness made look like a legit star. Would Black have ever got over as more than a tag guy if them 2 weren't around? Debatable but I'd say unlikely. You look at the US Indies right now and there's nobody other than Generico who can fit into that role of taking a lesser guy and getting the most out of him to make him look like a great worker even if he isn't. Take Gargano for example. Gargano's a guy who's got the potential to be a great worker on the Indies but all the guys he works with are around his level so he can't progress any higher without a superhuman solo effort. Working with guys like Chuck Taylor and Jon Davis won't make him a great worker. Working with guys like Danielson and co would have made him a great worker by now though. All you have to do is watch Gargano's match with Danielson from 2010 and you'll see my point of how a guy like Danielson can take a decent worker, use all his positives and then use all of his attributes to make the guy look better than he already is and then use the experience for that guy to develop from it. There's an old wrestling phrase which is "you're only as good as your opponent". Basically in order for you to look good, you have to make your opponent look good. A guy like Chuck Taylor can't make a guy like Johnny Gargano look better than he is. Flair and Danielson were/are masters of doing that. How many Indy guys has Danielson had the best matches of their carears with? How many guys made Sting and Luger look as great as they did when they faced Flair?
List is around all the guys I'd say were at the tops in the US Indie scene anyways. Minus ACH. Not too sold on him atm.

Yes. That's my view on the state of indie wrestling too. All the veterans are lost. I made that statement about a month ago while reviewing Austin Aries vs Bully Ray. I can echo your entire post with my rebuttal post, but why do so when you pointed out all the facts already. 100% agreed.

I've always put Danielson over like that. His matches TJ Perkins a few years ago in PWG is one of the fastest examples that comes to my mind in this scenario. TJ, a good well rounded wrestler. A tad bland however. Danielson brought out the best I've seen from him in their clash at Battle of Los Angeles. Everyone was raving and it was all thanks in part to Danielson having that keen ability to make ANYONE he clashes against look like a star. He's the main guy to have that Flair quality about him. We could peg a few other names if we thought about it, but those are the two that go hand in hand. Indie scene needs another one to fill that void. Well, more than one obviously. Generico can do that. He's GREAT at adding a brilliant story/drama to a match. He can't save everything within the US indie scene all on his own though. He's done a damn good job nonetheless. Help is needed.
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Old 11-23-2012, 06:16 AM   #2044 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2012 MOTYC thread

Danielson/McGuinness 6YA is the only ROH crowd I've ever enjoyed.

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Finlay was horrible in that match. Slow and out of shape. Anyone who says otherwise is just saying different for the sake of being different.
Ugh.
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Old 11-23-2012, 06:40 AM   #2045 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2012 MOTYC thread

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Originally Posted by Roncaglione View Post
Finlay was horrible in that match. Slow and out of shape. Anyone who says otherwise is just saying different for the sake of being different.

I liked some of Finlay matches on his indy tour. But the Cult of Finlay is really tiresome.
I haven't seen the match, but I'd be incredibly surprised if I thought the same as you did mainly because of how Finlay to me has looked on his indy run, which has been anything but 'slow and out of shape'.

The bit about 'people saying different for the sake of being different' is really silly. I love his style and the way he makes seemingly everything matter and have a sense of purpose, but I'm not going to pretend that style could wear thin on some people and just not really connect and matter to them. Saying people with a contrary opinion to you are just stating that to oppose you makes you look childish and highly elitist, in that you believe there's nothing to counter your opinion.

'The cult of Finlay' is again a pretty silly statement. People appreciate it his style because its simplistic, yet layered and progresses a match along nicely. He knows how to make opponents of various styles and sizes look like a threat and can work a variety of match formulas. Of course like any wrestler his style isn't going to win everyone over, and in Finlay's case the pace of his matches can probably alienate people not used to his or the classic European style of wrestling. It doesn't make them misguided or clueless to not like his matches, but it does make them look clueless if they then accuse any Finlay fan of only liking his matches for the sake of being 'elitist' and different to everyone else.
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Old 11-23-2012, 06:48 AM   #2046 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2012 MOTYC thread

The Elgin match was Finlay's worst match of his Indy run not with a comedy wrestler or a midget. Elgin looked clueless in it. Finlay wasn't great in it either tbf. One of his weaker performances of his Indy run. The crowd killed it though. Finlay + ROH wasn't a good mix.
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Old 11-23-2012, 07:01 AM   #2047 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2012 MOTYC thread

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Originally Posted by Seabs View Post
The Elgin match was Finlay's worst match of his Indy run not with a comedy wrestler or a midget. Elgin looked clueless in it. Finlay wasn't great in it either tbf. One of his weaker performances of his Indy run. The crowd killed it though. Finlay + ROH wasn't a good mix.
and Finlay couldn't adapt.

The fans had every reason to get restless as that match was genuinely boring regardless what style was or wasn't being wrestled. It was like a boring WWE house show match rather than this technical masterpiece the "moronic" ROH fans didn't get.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Segunda Caida View Post
'The cult of Finlay' is again a pretty silly statement. People appreciate it his style because its simplistic, yet layered and progresses a match along nicely. He knows how to make opponents of various styles and sizes look like a threat and can work a variety of match formulas. Of course like any wrestler his style isn't going to win everyone over, and in Finlay's case the pace of his matches can probably alienate people not used to his or the classic European style of wrestling. It doesn't make them misguided or clueless to not like his matches, but it does make them look clueless if they then accuse any Finlay fan of only liking his matches for the sake of being 'elitist' and different to everyone else.
You being a Phil Scheider/Dylan Waco covers act is nice and all but I didn't say that.
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Old 11-23-2012, 07:12 AM   #2048 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2012 MOTYC thread

Also the match was after Cole/O'Reilly whe the crowd went nuts.
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Old 11-23-2012, 10:43 AM   #2049 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2012 MOTYC thread

ROH fans only react when someone says something smarky like chanting CM Punk at Maria or when guys kill themselves doing spots. Rest of the time they don't react so Finlay was never going to get a Finlay style match really over with the current ROH fanbase. I agree that the match wasn't interesting though and that neither guy was great in it. Comments like "Anyone who says otherwise is just saying different for the sake of being different", "But the Cult of Finlay is really tiresome" and "You being a Phil Scheider/Dylan Waco covers act is nice" just make you come across as though you're opinion is massively affected by your agenda with another board.
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Old 11-23-2012, 11:17 AM   #2050 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2012 MOTYC thread

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ROH fans only react when someone says something smarky like chanting CM Punk at Maria or when guys kill themselves doing spots. Rest of the time they don't react so Finlay was never going to get a Finlay style match really over with the current ROH fanbase. I agree that the match wasn't interesting though and that neither guy was great in it. Comments like "Anyone who says otherwise is just saying different for the sake of being different", "But the Cult of Finlay is really tiresome" and "You being a Phil Scheider/Dylan Waco covers act is nice" just make you come across as though you're opinion is massively affected by your agenda with another board.
I actually get on with those two people.
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