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Old 05-31-2012, 09:30 AM   #1091 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2012 MOTYC thread

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Originally Posted by Yeah1993 View Post
Selling affects HUGELY how much I enjoy a match, though. If one guys bombs another, and the guy getting bombed keeps getting up and yelling like a fucking moron, I won't enjoy the match. Or at least that part of it. He just got wiped out and should stay the fuck down. Some are entertained by that five million mile an hour style match where both guys just squeeze in as many moves as they can. I'm not. Some people aren't taken out of a match when there's people no-selling galore. I am.

I can't speak for everyone, but I certainly don't do anything more than "sit back and enjoy the ride". I can be analytical, but I'm not looking at it from any other perspective other than my own enjoyment. I'll talk about the selling because I adore it when a guy sells well- I literally enjoy that.

Facials aren't match-ruiners for me, but if I'm watching Keiji Mutoh in a submission hold and he's just staring into space not even trying to get the move over........well fuck him. That still fits into the 'no sell' category more than anything.

If there's a match with two guys, I'll use Cena and Henry. Let's say I enjoyed this match, but it could have been better to me. Cena ate a beating from Henry, and Cena ate it really well. His facials looked like he was in pain, and he bumped well, etc. By that point I'm enjoying the match. THEN, Cena bursts up out of nowhere, no sells everything and pins Henry lightning fast. I'd say "fuck that" because there's no way I'd enjoy it. I wouldn't say "Cena should have built his comeback gradually" because I'm critiquing, I would say "Cena should have built his comeback gradually" because I would enjoy the match more if he did. They aren't rules and I'm not sitting with a note pad writing down what somebody did wrong. I'm sure you look at some wrestling matches and think "_insert thing here_ would have made the match a lot better." Well _insert thing here_ for me is often good selling. Or selling, period.

Note: I wasn't implying no selling was a Cena thing. I was, however, implying that staring into space is a Mutoh thing. Seriously, Keiji.....react.
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Old 05-31-2012, 10:00 AM   #1092 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2012 MOTYC thread

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Originally Posted by Last Chancery View Post
Does anybody rate matches by how much they enjoy them anymore? Putting all these rules to wrestling really kills the fun of it, at least for me. "You MUST sell this, you MUST hold this facial expression, you CAN'T do this..."

If a facial expression ruins an entire match for you, man, I don't even know anymore. It's like the difference between going to movies because you want to see the movie, and going to movies because you're a critic. Difference is the former enjoys what he's watching while the latter doesn't and is doing it for the paycheck. In my opinion, of course. I just think nitpicking every minute detail of every minute of a match kills it. Sometimes it's just more fun to sit back and enjoy the ride.
You're essentially implying that a person cannot find a match fun or not based on selling. Selling after all is the acting part of wrestling, it can be seen as just as important as any other aspect of pro wrestling to a fan.

I don't get the movie analogy either, you didn't really bother to make a specific connection. You just said fan vs critic, but didn't bother to explain the difference.

Being critical or analytical doesn't equate to not enjoying a product in the slightest.
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Old 05-31-2012, 12:47 PM   #1093 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2012 MOTYC thread

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Originally Posted by Kid Kablam View Post
2 Things

A) I do appreciate that you don't just throw snowflakes at matches without logic, or just based on how much of a buzz you get from them. I think there's been a star rating inflation with matches like Taker/HHH getting 4.75-5 stars simply because they go a certain amount of time, and incorporating a base line of brutality. Sometimes it seems like a match going 20+ minutes gets and automatic 3.5 stars, and containing a certain number of spots automatically bumps it up to 4. So I do appreciate your method, even if I don't agree with all of it.

B) Your point of selling the fear is valid, but I think you might be expecting a bit much. I like to point to the Danielson/KENTA match for this. Danielson (yes I'm using his old name) was injured, and still could do a number of moves with his legit injured shoulder. I know that selling is based on what the audience expects, and therefore selling to communicate to the audience is more important than "realism", but I think there's a lot of leeway in here. You brought up Punk not selling on getting Bryan in the fireman's carry (at least I believe that's what you were referencing)but I think Punk did a lot of selling the ribs throughout, so I was ok with it. He was slower on climbing the turn buckles etc. Same with Bryan and selling the leg. He brings it out at certain points to remind the audience that he does actually have a leg thing, and that he can only overcome it with an adrenaline burst (like he gets near the end of the match). A lot of people said that Bryan wasn't selling the leg properly, but sometimes I wonder if they were expecting Bryan to not be able to use the leg at all.
Ah, I do believe you have my point confused.

When I say "selling fear" I don't mean selling of anything physical (say injury, as was the case with Danielson) but rather something more psychologically based. Selling, in this case, is something precursor to the actual move being fully executed and, for me, anyway, helps add a sense of danger or effectiveness to said move. It shows that Wrestler B (the one the move is being done to) is fearful of what Wrestler A (the wrestler in control and executing the move) is doing, and is trying his hardest to avoid it, and not simply allowing the move to be done to him. Realistically, in a fight, you won't let your opponent land unnecessary offence on you without struggling against it. It just nails home that the move in question has damage-capability and isn't merely choreographed gymnastics (which wrestling is, but should never be portrayed as). It's the opposing wrestler struggling while Bret Hart applies his sharpshooter. A weakened wrestler squirming his way out of a fireman carry that precedes the GTS. A wrestler, knowing his end is near, struggling in vain as The Undertaker grips his neck and goes for the chokeslam. John Cena covering his face while Brock lays waste with vicious strikes (though in this case the strikes weren't kayfabe, but the point stands).

After all, imagine what the sport would be like if every move was accompanied with as much emotive feeling as this guy brings:

I'd dare to say it would be a very bland sport, indeed.

Wrestling is as technical as it is psychological
Wrestling is as physical as it is emotional


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Originally Posted by Last Chancery View Post
Does anybody rate matches by how much they enjoy them anymore? Putting all these rules to wrestling really kills the fun of it, at least for me. "You MUST sell this, you MUST hold this facial expression, you CAN'T do this..."

If a facial expression ruins an entire match for you, man, I don't even know anymore. It's like the difference between going to movies because you want to see the movie, and going to movies because you're a critic. Difference is the former enjoys what he's watching while the latter doesn't and is doing it for the paycheck. In my opinion, of course. I just think nitpicking every minute detail of every minute of a match kills it. Sometimes it's just more fun to sit back and enjoy the ride.
I'll take that as a dig at my "selling fear" proposition.

That said, do such things hinder a match significantly for me? No, but a match cannot be in the upper echelons if it doesn't have it. What seperates "perfect" from "excellent" is (on its surface) so miniscule I can imagine it wouldn't mean much to most, but it's the nuances that make the match so much more enjoyable for me. Maybe I'm sadistic in my technicalities but I'm overly critical in my approach to everything. Star ratings, by their fundamental nature, involve reviewing and critiquing a match, not simply showing how much we enjoy it, after all.

Just because a match needs X, Y and Z to get itself ***** it doesn't mean I'm constantly looking for it in every match. Likewise, just because a match receives a * rating it doesn't mean I didn't enjoy it or find it iconic in terms of its historic value (I'm over-exaggerating to make a point, obviously a * star match would, normally, be some banal opener, a (boring) spotfest or a Davey Richards match (kidding)). Eric Young matches are my guilty pleasure. They're not technical masterpieces nor blow-away performances but they are comedically entertaining to no end. For many weeks (or even months) his segments would be the best part of Impact, for me, and I'd continue with a pathetic episode purely because I knew, at least, he would make my stomach ache from laughing.

All that said I do find entertainment in the subtleties. It's the little nuances that make wrestling unique for me and a pleasure to watch some wrestlers over others. It's also these things that aren't limited to a specific wrestling genre (would style be a better word?) so I don't have to suspend too much of my likes for any specific promotion.

This sprint entertains me (at surface value) more than most matches because it satisfies the lazier part of me. This match is the fast food world of wrestling and delivers, at speed, something of somewhat decent value.


This match, however, is home-made, gourmet cooking. It takes longer to enjoy, it takes more effort, too, but the end result is so much more rewarding than a simple Big Mac with jalapenos and a smidgen of mayonnaise.


Also, basically what Yeah1993 said.

Anyway, back on topic:
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PWG - DDT4 2012 - Future Shock (Adam Cole & Kyle O'Reilly) vs. Super Smash Bros. (Player Uno & Stupefied)
God I love the Super Smash Bros. I don't think Future Shock should have been broken up and feuding, well they aren't PWG, but you know what I mean, there was a few sloppy moments in the final 10 minutes, but the finish was awesome, pretty damn good match ****
THIS

People need to stop being ass-clowns and just watch DDT4 already!
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Old 05-31-2012, 01:43 PM   #1094 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2012 MOTYC thread

Just watched DDT4, and SSB vs. Future Shock is my favorite match of the year so far. Granted I haven't seen a few of the bigger shows so far this year like Extreme Rules or Border Wars, but my God this was awesome. In my opinion each of the SSB matches was at least **** but this one was probably ****1/4+.
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Old 05-31-2012, 02:01 PM   #1095 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2012 MOTYC thread

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Originally Posted by Last Chancery View Post
Does anybody rate matches by how much they enjoy them anymore? Putting all these rules to wrestling really kills the fun of it, at least for me. "You MUST sell this, you MUST hold this facial expression, you CAN'T do this..."

If a facial expression ruins an entire match for you, man, I don't even know anymore. It's like the difference between going to movies because you want to see the movie, and going to movies because you're a critic. Difference is the former enjoys what he's watching while the latter doesn't and is doing it for the paycheck. In my opinion, of course. I just think nitpicking every minute detail of every minute of a match kills it. Sometimes it's just more fun to sit back and enjoy the ride.
A star rating system is how I rate my enjoyment. The rating is simply quantifying my enjoyment so I can express it.
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Old 05-31-2012, 02:25 PM   #1096 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2012 MOTYC thread

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Originally Posted by Last Chancery View Post
Does anybody rate matches by how much they enjoy them anymore? Putting all these rules to wrestling really kills the fun of it, at least for me. "You MUST sell this, you MUST hold this facial expression, you CAN'T do this..."

If a facial expression ruins an entire match for you, man, I don't even know anymore. It's like the difference between going to movies because you want to see the movie, and going to movies because you're a critic. Difference is the former enjoys what he's watching while the latter doesn't and is doing it for the paycheck. In my opinion, of course. I just think nitpicking every minute detail of every minute of a match kills it. Sometimes it's just more fun to sit back and enjoy the ride.
Yep, I do.. If I think a match was very boring and it makes me tired, bored etc.. I'll give it 1 star. If I am really enjoying a match and don't want it to end for example it'll get a higher rating. I just watch wrestling for my enjoyment and don't want to overanalize everything to find small faults to give it a lower rating. (not a shot at anyone just genuinely how I feel.. )
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Old 05-31-2012, 02:32 PM   #1097 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2012 MOTYC thread

I literally share the exact same thoughts as Yeah1993 on this subject. I can't be bothered to write anything more in depth since he pretty much covered it. I'll just say that people enjoy matches in different ways, and a lot of people love seeing selling etc because that's what people enjoy and is a huge part of what makes matches enjoyable for people. Saying that if you critique a match just makes you a critic and not a fan is ridiculous.

More food analogies. Fuck it, off for a Big Mac now...

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Old 05-31-2012, 04:16 PM   #1098 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2012 MOTYC thread

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Originally Posted by Hohenheim of Light View Post
This is completely hilarious and wrong. The rest of your post is too, kind of, but this stands out.
Nice to know personal opinions can be wrong, especially in regard to something as subjective as one's enjoyment of a wrestling match. I've seen people rate Davey/Elgin anywhere from 3.75 to 5, reasoning varying from the selling to the facial expressions and everything in between. There is no such thing as an objectively good, or bad, wrestling match, since everybody watches for different reasons. Even the reasons I watch, from match to match, vary. Sometimes I want to sit back and enjoy the ride, not breaking a match down piece by piece. Other times, depending on my mood, excitement level and emotional investment, I can be a little more critical.

To the point, I don't blame people for being critical. Obviously selling and expressions and pacing and structure all are important factors in any match, but I maintain that it's possible to be too critical. Maybe it's just me and my simple mind, but I don't always look for that stuff when I watch. Occasionally I do, but most times I like sitting on my couch, turning up the volume and taking it all in at a more surface value. Rather than asking myself questions like, "Did Punk sell his arm as much as he should have?" and "Did Davey hold that facial expression long enough to make the submission believable?" I ask myself THIS question: "Am I enjoying myself?" While I'd agree there are a number of smaller factors that make up my overall level of enjoyment, I don't pay mind to those. I don't go into viewing with a number of qualifiers that must be met in order for me to enjoy myself. It is possible to just sit back and mindlessly consume a product, which is why I have no problem eating up a good spot fest from time to time. They're like the popcorn action movies on wrestling, replacing an overage of unnecessary explosions with, well, an overage of unnecessary spots.

It depends on how you view things. Maybe I'm not conditioned enough to appreciate all the subtleties and nuances of wrestling yet, which leads me to take a broader approach to my viewing. But I've found more enjoyment in that -- and, again, that's just me. When I'm able to watch a match and keep an open mind, I always have more fun than if I sat down with a pen and paper, taking off points for minor gaffes here and there. That's my opinion. Find it as hilarious or "wrong" as you'd like, but just know I'd rather be stupid and have a reason for it than be smart and back it up with nothing. So, I'm wrong. You didn't explain why. Fancy argument there.
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Old 05-31-2012, 04:41 PM   #1099 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2012 MOTYC thread

In my view, selling shouldn't be treated the same as every where else. Like how you wouldn't see a guy no sell in the WWE like you would you see a guy in NOAH or old school AJPW. It is two completely different environments. Like I never got how people would go bonkers about Super Kicks not being sold crazy in other places where it is only in the WWE that the move is such a big deal and it is in the same category is as the lariat is in the WWE(Every other place goes crazy for it but in WWE, it is just a clothesline). So in the case of Richards vs. Elgin where Elgin pops up after a German Suplex, I don't mind because it's indy and that is something I, as well as I think everyone, should come to expect. Not WWE where they are built around that sort of style(Which is a style I love btw). No selling was actually one of my criticisms of the highly praised Rollins vs. Ambrose match last year where Ambrose no sold a Super Kick. That's a move that made no sense especially when it is guys being developed into stars for World Wrestling Entertainment and are reverting back to how they work elsewhere instead of adapting to the proper setting.

Point is not everyone should be nailed to a cross for how another company does their business. That being said, I do believe there are certain rules in wrestling and certain things that should be placed in the proper position. Like timing is one of them. One of my biggest criticisms of Sami vs. Finlay in Evolve this year is Sami's constant use of the middle finger and his shitty facial expressions when Finlay was doing his work over segment(Made him a terrible FIP). If you want something to come off as a big deal and a great character moment, you have to put them in the proper place no matter what. Like Richards spitting in KENTA's face and flipping him off before KENTA started playing Soccer with his Skull at Supercard of Honor was a fantastic moment. That moment when Kobashi got slapped by Joe and you can sense the ass beating rage coming from within Kobashi(Best facial reaction guy in fucking history btw) sent electricity through the crowd. If you do these things all the time, the moments don't come off as special and instead become of a poor presentation of what could of been done better had it been handled properly. Would HBK/Undertaker II really had that climatic end had HBK been doing that throat slash throughout the whole match? Would Triple H doing that DX Chop really come off as that big of a deal had he been using during each and every time Taker had control? No.
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Old 05-31-2012, 05:26 PM   #1100 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2012 MOTYC thread

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Originally Posted by Caponex75 View Post
Point is not everyone should be nailed to a cross for how another company does their business. That being said, I do believe there are certain rules in wrestling and certain things that should be placed in the proper position. Like timing is one of them. One of my biggest criticisms of Sami vs. Finlay in Evolve this year is Sami's constant use of the middle finger and his shitty facial expressions when Finlay was doing his work over segment(Made him a terrible FIP). If you want something to come off as a big deal and a great character moment, you have to put them in the proper place no matter what. Like Richards spitting in KENTA's face and flipping him off before KENTA started playing Soccer with his Skull at Supercard of Honor was a fantastic moment. That moment when Kobashi got slapped by Joe and you can sense the ass beating rage coming from within Kobashi(Best facial reaction guy in fucking history btw) sent electricity through the crowd. If you do these things all the time, the moments don't come off as special and instead become of a poor presentation of what could of been done better had it been handled properly. Would HBK/Undertaker II really had that climatic end had HBK been doing that throat slash throughout the whole match? Would Triple H doing that DX Chop really come off as that big of a deal had he been using during each and every time Taker had control? No.
Completely agree with every single word you wrote here, the Sami stuff especially. I fucking despise him constantly sticking his middle finger up in like, every match when he's being worked over. It's fucking pathetic and just makes you want to see him get legit beaten up, when he's supposed to be the FIP. Awful shit. You mention the Davey/KENTA thing and that's a great example of how to pull something like that off, something I think Davey is actually really good at most of the time, and something someone like Sami can't do at all. Davey did it in both the Elgin and Steen matches this year, his reaction especially after Steen kicked out of the D.R Driver was great.

Talking of that, Davey really has all the talent to be so fucking good, but for the most part just pisses it away and I don't enjoy the majority of his matches any more at all, and I don't enjoy them because of the lack of logic and the lack of a good structure or story, or make that a story that appeals to me I guess. What I'm trying to say is that I enjoy a wrestling match if it has those things listed above, and I don't enjoy them if they don't. Enjoyment can come from having a certain criteria that matches should adhere to, if you don't have that then most of the time you would lose the impact of a match that includes those things, and the feeling you get of 'now that was a fucking great match' when you see a match that does. For me anyway, It's like, how can you enjoy a movie that has gaping plot holes or a shitty story or bad acting.
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