ROH on SBG Discussion Thread - Page 55 - Wrestling Forum : WWE, TNA, Debate League, Wrestling Videos, Women of Wrestling Forums
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Old 11-11-2011, 03:18 PM   #541 (permalink)
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Default Re: ROH on SBG Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Seabs View Post
Maybe he woke back up and tried sitting through them again?

Also that last point is stupid. Would Ultimate Warrior wrestling in ROH have to be enjoyable because it's a big name from the WWF alumni in a small promotion like ROH? It's not even like Benjamin and Haas had huge success in WWE aside from their initial run for like a year and Benjamin in 2004. They really aren't all that significant historically, or at least not as much as you make them out to be in your argument. If there wrestling sucks (which it has) then there's no enjoyment to be taken no matter where they came from.
- Ultimate Warrior's style doesn't fit ROH, in the way that WGTT's does. If Ultimate Warrior turned up in, say, Chikara, then people would take enjoyment. Of course, as always, certain fans would wallow in their formulaic asterisk ratings and completely miss the point.

- WGTT were part of a group of wrestlers (Lesnar, Angle etc.) that pioneered a unique style, primarily on Smackdown, in an era that's fondly remembered as one of the high-points of the past decade. If not for those wrestlers, the trend that led to the success of ROH and similar companies might never have started.

- I can't name a more significant tag team in the past decade. The Briscoes are hugely important, in a completely different way, but no-one else springs to mind.

- The "their wrestling sucks" argument just shows how short people's memories are. Two out of their three matches with the KOW were excellent old school tag matches. The Briscoes match showed an intense, physical side of Shelton Benjamin that, at that time, I didn't think existed. The Wolves match was a great simple way to steer home an awesome weekend of wrestling.
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Old 11-11-2011, 03:26 PM   #542 (permalink)
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Default Re: ROH on SBG Discussion Thread

I think WGTT have been doing fine and their matches have for the most part been good. I was in Chicago live for the 9th Anniversary Show and the match against the Briscoes was a great watch in my opinion. I was also in Collinsville this past weekend and they delivered in their match with Cole and O'Reilly in front of like 300 people. I do feel like Haas and Benjamin are capable of more though
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Old 11-11-2011, 03:54 PM   #543 (permalink)
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Default Re: ROH on SBG Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Shirley Crabtree III View Post
- The "their wrestling sucks" argument just shows how short people's memories are. Two out of their three matches with the KOW were excellent old school tag matches. The Briscoes match showed an intense, physical side of Shelton Benjamin that, at that time, I didn't think existed. The Wolves match was a great simple way to steer home an awesome weekend of wrestling.
I don't see too many people making a "their wrestling sucks" argument. What I see is people disappointed in the fact that it looks like they're just going through the motions and have one gear most of the time. The honeymoon has been over for them, for a while. The novelty has worn off, they've become complacent and they aren't delivering at the level you would expect. ROH isn't the type of promotion where you just show up and do whatever at house shows, especially as the promotions tag team champions at a time when they're pushing the division harder than ever.

It's really been a downward spiral since Toronto. Mind you, I think the AW match is incredibly overrated, but it was really good and they worked their asses off, not to say they aren't every time they go out there, but since Toronto...

Briscoes - Semi-main tag title match. Had a better dynamic than the 9YA match and just never got out of a park, let alone first gear.
4-Way - I think everyone collectively hates this match, the booking was just a total mess. The point to be made here isn't so much their performance, but the lack of response. They were easily the least over of the four teams.
Cabana/Generico - Saw this live and just...oof. Mediocre and as soon as it picked up, it fell apart. They edited this heavily on DVD, but this was easily their worst performance to date...
Bravados - ... Then this match happened. I don't think I've ever seen this type of match in ROH. The epitome of a house show match. Funny thing is I was actually looking forward to this based on the HDNet squash they did which was AWESOME. I figured, hey, do that same match and add a couple of minutes. Instead, it was eight minutes of nothing and The Bravados came out of it looking worse than ever. I'll give them credit though as this was mostly about the aftermath, but as the legitimate sub main of the show, it comes off really bad.
WGTT - Mediocre. Easily the worst of the series.
Cole/O'Reilly - Botched finish.

In conclusion, to coin a friend on Twitter, "WORLD'S MOST MEDIOCRE TAG TEAM", would be more appropriate.
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Old 11-11-2011, 04:49 PM   #544 (permalink)
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Default Re: ROH on SBG Discussion Thread

Hardyz are more important in the last decade than Haas & Benjamin.

Oh, but Haas & Benjamin were awesome EIGHT YEARS AGO. So of course they have earned a push now. Let's pay Paul London top dollar and put him over Davey at the 10th Anniversary while we're at it.
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Old 11-11-2011, 04:57 PM   #545 (permalink)
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Default Re: ROH on SBG Discussion Thread

In fairness, some individuals here would find way to complain about Bryan Danielson and William Regal coming to ROH if it actually happened, it's the way it went.

Crabtree is right in that we all clammered for them to come in and thought it was a dream, and I don't think you can accuse them of being a disappointment.

Were they ever going to live up to the levels they set nine years ago?
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Old 11-11-2011, 05:08 PM   #546 (permalink)
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Default Re: ROH on SBG Discussion Thread

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On the topic of WGTT, am I the only one who hates Charlie Haas' skullcap? I don't know why but I think it makes him look like a total douche. Might have something to do with the fact he never seems like he wants to be there
No you're not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirley Crabtree III View Post
- WGTT were part of a group of wrestlers (Lesnar, Angle etc.) that pioneered a unique style, primarily on Smackdown, in an era that's fondly remembered as one of the high-points of the past decade. If not for those wrestlers, the trend that led to the success of ROH and similar companies might never have started.
Being part of a group in a great era and leading a group in a great era are two different things. Guys like Eddie, Angle, Rey, Benoit and Lesnar lead the group and then the other guys from that era followed them. Not saying they weren't good during that era because they were but take them out of the equation and the result wouldn't have been much different. Take Angle or Rey or Eddie or Lesnar out of the equation and you'd get a noticeable difference which is what makes them historically significant. It takes a lot more than a good 12-18 month run having great matches with guys like Eddie, Benoit and Rey to be historically significant. Benjamin could have been if his 04 singles run carried through to later years but it didn't.
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Originally Posted by Shirley Crabtree III View Post
- I can't name a more significant tag team in the past decade. The Briscoes are hugely important, in a completely different way, but no-one else springs to mind.
Hardys, Dudleys and E&C?

I'd throw AMW and GenNext out there too as having a much bigger impact on tag team wrestling in the US than Haas and Benjamin have. Hardys/Dudleys/E&C one isn't even questionable. GenNext really cemented the ROH Tag belts as being equal to the World Title and really elevated tag wrestling on an Indy level when it was dying mainstream. Same can be said for Briscoes. You can make an argument for Embassy too in terms of Shelley and Rave. AMW were the forepoint of TNA during their early years all the way through to their peak years and had a huge hand in establishing that company. I'd consider Los Guerreros more influental than WGTT too.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirley Crabtree III View Post
- The "their wrestling sucks" argument just shows how short people's memories are. Two out of their three matches with the KOW were excellent old school tag matches. The Briscoes match showed an intense, physical side of Shelton Benjamin that, at that time, I didn't think existed. The Wolves match was a great simple way to steer home an awesome weekend of wrestling.
Quote:
Originally Posted by benturpen View Post
I don't see too many people making a "their wrestling sucks" argument. What I see is people disappointed in the fact that it looks like they're just going through the motions and have one gear most of the time. The honeymoon has been over for them, for a while. The novelty has worn off, they've become complacent and they aren't delivering at the level you would expect. ROH isn't the type of promotion where you just show up and do whatever at house shows, especially as the promotions tag team champions at a time when they're pushing the division harder than ever.

It's really been a downward spiral since Toronto. Mind you, I think the AW match is incredibly overrated, but it was really good and they worked their asses off, not to say they aren't every time they go out there, but since Toronto...

Briscoes - Semi-main tag title match. Had a better dynamic than the 9YA match and just never got out of a park, let alone first gear.
4-Way - I think everyone collectively hates this match, the booking was just a total mess. The point to be made here isn't so much their performance, but the lack of response. They were easily the least over of the four teams.
Cabana/Generico - Saw this live and just...oof. Mediocre and as soon as it picked up, it fell apart. They edited this heavily on DVD, but this was easily their worst performance to date...
Bravados - ... Then this match happened. I don't think I've ever seen this type of match in ROH. The epitome of a house show match. Funny thing is I was actually looking forward to this based on the HDNet squash they did which was AWESOME. I figured, hey, do that same match and add a couple of minutes. Instead, it was eight minutes of nothing and The Bravados came out of it looking worse than ever. I'll give them credit though as this was mostly about the aftermath, but as the legitimate sub main of the show, it comes off really bad.
WGTT - Mediocre. Easily the worst of the series.
Cole/O'Reilly - Botched finish.

In conclusion, to coin a friend on Twitter, "WORLD'S MOST MEDIOCRE TAG TEAM", would be more appropriate.
First KOW match was really good because of the novelty and a great crowd. After that the novelty wore off and they got average. The other 2 KOW matches weren't all that good at all, especially their title win which felt so flat given the event and the outcome. I quite enjoyed the TV match but largely down to KOW and them working a simple STF structured match. 1st Briscoes match was average. Wolves match was good but largely for Wolves. I don't think WGTT brought much more to that match than a team like ANX would have. After Mania weekend when they won the belts they went from being mediocre to actually noticeable bad on a far too regular basis. 2nd Briscoes match was bad. FutureShock match was clearly weaker than the standard of matches Cole and O'Reilly have been having with other teams all year including Bravados. 4 way was horrible to have to sit through and was it a coincidence that WGTT were in there for the duration and again brought nothing to the match. The Cabana/Generico match was the tip of the iceberg. Yes Cabana was awful as well and look where he is now compared to Haas and Benjamin. Even in the better matches they've been involved in have they really brought anything above average to a match they've been in besides their first match?

I don't think it's a coincidence that they've only really been working ROH and OVW dates either compared to the schedule that the motivated wrestlers like Richards and O'Reilly work.

Edit: DC, I cant speak for others but I'm not to trying to argue why they are where they are. They have mainstream exposure going into a TV era and obviously that has to be capitalised on. No question about that. What I'm arguing is that their run in ROH has been really quite horrible.

Last edited by Seabs : 11-11-2011 at 05:11 PM.
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Old 11-11-2011, 05:18 PM   #547 (permalink)
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Default Re: ROH on SBG Discussion Thread

WGTT are one of the main reasons I've stopped watching ROH recently.
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Old 11-11-2011, 05:51 PM   #548 (permalink)
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Default Re: ROH on SBG Discussion Thread

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In fairness, some individuals here would find way to complain about Bryan Danielson and William Regal coming to ROH if it actually happened, it's the way it went.

Crabtree is right in that we all clammered for them to come in and thought it was a dream, and I don't think you can accuse them of being a disappointment.

Were they ever going to live up to the levels they set nine years ago?
If your gimmick is to be a great athlete and you're too broken down to do it properly anymore, you either change your gimmick or retire. There is a reason why Dusty Rhodes can do matches in his 60s but Kenta Kobashi will be done for good at that age.
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Old 11-11-2011, 07:49 PM   #549 (permalink)
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Default Re: ROH on SBG Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Shirley Crabtree III View Post
Funny because you've given meticulous star ratings and broken down what you thought was good/bad about them, over and over again.

The bullshit keeps spiralling. I think you need to stop the madness.

If you can't take any enjoyment from seeing a team that's as historically-significant as WGTT having a run in a small hall promotion, like ROH, then...well...fuck knows.
the only WGTT matches I've "given meticulous star ratings" this year were the KOW title win, the Future Shock match, the Wolves match in Atlanta, and the BITW four-way. Stayed awake for the first two, woke up midway through and rewound the others. I don't see how that's so unbelievable.

I like good wrestling that doesn't insult my intelligence. It is an insult to my intelligence every time Jim Cornette says that ROH has the best tag team wrestling on the planet, or every time Kevin Kelly tells me that I'm watching a great match when I can see with my own eyes that it is far from great. I gave up on WWE and TNA for the same reasons. I like 04-07 ROH for the same reasons. I like PWG for the same reasons. It's a pretty fucking simple philosophy, but you have to make up pseudo-intellectual reasons involving me having various personality disorders because you can't figure out why someone might have a different opinion from what you perceive to be the "majority".

and if you want to talk about bullshit spiraling, I can go back a few months and find where I said the novelty of WGTT being in ROH would wear off and everyone would realize that they're actually pretty bad, and having the tag titles on them despite that is antithetical to ROH's stated philosophy (something you've never rebutted despite this being probably the seventh time I've brought it up). I'm being proven right right now and you keep refusing to acknowledge that I've been right all along. Explain that, or shut up, because you contribute nothing and nobody cares what you have to say.
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Old 11-12-2011, 08:35 AM   #550 (permalink)
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Default Re: ROH on SBG Discussion Thread

This discussion will go nowhere, he seems to be a great ROH fan and everything they do will be great for him, Edwards and WGTT are a pretty good example.
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