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Old 11-03-2011, 05:43 PM   #761 (permalink)
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Default Re: Your 5 Star Match Lists

Jumbo isn't near GOAT status in my book.
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Old 11-03-2011, 05:51 PM   #762 (permalink)
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Default Re: Your 5 Star Match Lists

I'd argue his 1990-1991 run belongs in the upper echelon of 'peak years' for a worker, much like El Dandy 1989-1992, Flair's entire 80s but namely his 1985 and 1989 year, Lawler from 82-87, Misawa 91-96, Taue's 1995 etc, Fujiwara's entire 80s, 1990 Liger etc.

He's had some memorable performances and is still excellent, but yeah Tenryu, Hashimoto, Kawada, Liger, Fujiwara, Fujinami (could do with a rewatch of his best stuff), Misawa, Kobashi (maaaaaaaaybe), Naoki Sano (huge fan of this guy and demand more of his work be uncovered) and The Destroyer would be closer to GOAT status as japan workers (and in Destroyer's case, where some of his best work originated from) IMO than Jumbo.
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Old 11-03-2011, 05:57 PM   #763 (permalink)
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Default Re: Your 5 Star Match Lists

Speaking of Sano. Does anyone have his match against Shamrock ~_~?
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Old 11-03-2011, 05:58 PM   #764 (permalink)
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Default Re: Your 5 Star Match Lists

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Originally Posted by Violent By Design View Post
Jumbo isn't near GOAT status in my book.
He is in mine, I really don't give a damn if he had "average" matches instead of the classics people thought he would have in the 80's. I've seen a shit ton from him and seen enough greatness to consider him one of the GOATs.

I tend to separate "who's more talented?" to "who had a better career?" because to me those are 2 totally different discussions (for example I think Owen was more talented than Bret, but Bret had better and more consistent career so if I had to rank them, I would put Bret higher). And I don't like to compare puro guys to NA guys because is pretty pointless to be honest.
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Old 11-03-2011, 06:00 PM   #765 (permalink)
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Default Re: Your 5 Star Match Lists

Kawada and Ultimo Dragon are the best wrestlers out of Japan in my opinion.


I agree with The Destroyer. I would have him over Jumbo (and Misawa as well).
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Old 11-03-2011, 06:02 PM   #766 (permalink)
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Default Re: Your 5 Star Match Lists

Shawn Michaels vs. Bret Hart- Wrestlemania XII
Shawn Michaels vs. Undertaker- Wrestlemania XXV
Shawn Michaels vs. Undertaker- Wrestlemania XXVI
Bret Hart vs British Bulldog- Summerslam 1992
CM Punk vs John Cena- Money In The Bank
Bret Hart vs. Owen Hart- Wrestlemania X
Bret Hart vs. Owen Hart- Summerslam 1994
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Old 11-03-2011, 06:03 PM   #767 (permalink)
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Default Re: Your 5 Star Match Lists

Shamrock match is on Goodhelmet's PWFG comp (7 discs or something like that) but never seen it on a download link.

FTR Antonio: I was bringing up how to me Finlay and Funk's entire careers where its nye on impossible to pick a time where you could consider them 'disappointing' or 'before their prime' make up for them lacking the sheer volume of epic matches that Tsuruta amassed in AJPW. I'd never call his 80s work 'bad' though I do think its decreased in quality, though he does show great glimpses in some of the Flair matches and the 1986 tag (I forget the participants but its the tag everyone raves about as close to the 1990 and 1991 6 mans) that we'd go on to see in the twilight of his career.

I just think you can count the amount of disappointing performances from Finlay or Funk one one hand than compared to Jumbo, especially if you watch his 90s stuff before the 80s. That was more my general point.
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Old 11-03-2011, 06:13 PM   #768 (permalink)
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Default Re: Your 5 Star Match Lists

Funk is better than pretty much everyone really. Haven't seen a lot of Finlay besides what he's done in this decade (and to my earlier question, I would take 90's Jumbo to 00's Finlay in a heartbeat). And there's DECADES of work we haven't seen from Funk or Finlay for me to take seriously the "they never disappoint" tbh. But as I said before, I don't like comparing puro guys to NA/Euro guys, so I was referring more to other Japanese wrestlers.

This is a good discussion though, I'ma go get drunk while I watch La U play in Copa Sudamericana but hopefully I'll be back in a few hours to continue with this (although I'm pretty sure the discussion will be dead by that point. lol).
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Old 11-03-2011, 06:24 PM   #769 (permalink)
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Default Re: Your 5 Star Match Lists

Yeah I accept Finlay in particular may have had bad matches early on, though whenever I've seen people bring up his spells in Europe its usually to good reviews, and his WOS matches showed in his youth he was an athletic son of a bitch who still had the wrestling brain, stiffness and genius that ensures he can wrestle for years and never miss a trick. 2006+ Finlay is probably my favourite worker of the two, since he just makes everything look so knarly and vicious I can't help but adore everything he does, Jumbo was incredible in the 1990-1991 timeframe especially in the singles matches but yeah I'd still say I prefer Finlay even though I can totally buy why Jumbo's 90s spell would have more fans simply for the matches let alone the performances he threw out.

I accept the Puro/America debate can be the equivalent of flogging a dead horse with the different styles and ways of working, like I said it was a case of me saying a catalogue of amazing matches doesn't necessarily make Jumbo better than a Funk or Finlay, when to me if push came to shove I'd sooner have more Finlay/Funk matches available than I would Jumbo matches, not because I actively dislike Jumbo but simply because he isn't as great/appeals to me as Finlay or Funk or even someone like Hansen.

As for current GOAT: atm its Fujiwara/Lawler tie > Flair > Kawada > Tenryu > Stan Hansen/El Satanico tie.


Also the more of him I watch the more I want to put Yuki Ishikawa in the better than Jumbo elite group, amazing worker.
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Old 11-03-2011, 06:39 PM   #770 (permalink)
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Default Re: Your 5 Star Match Lists

Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent By Design View Post
anyone got some territory or lucha matches? looking for some good stuff that isn't widely pimped.
Any Lawler vs Dundee match
Lawler vs Idol - Cage Match
Duggan vs DiBiase - Cage + Stips Match
Murdoch vs Windham - Mid South 87
Shit there's so much Mid South stuff that is some of the best stuff from the 80's. Anything Flair from 85 is must see stuff. I had a list of the best Mid South matches I made, I'll see if I can find it.

As far as Lucha, the Santo vs Dandy vs Casas 3 match from 97 is by the far the best lucha match I've ever seen and likely will ever see.

Top 20 Mid South matches (imo)
1) Dick Murdoch vs. Barry Windham (7/11/87)
2) No DQ Loser Leaves Town Coal Miner's Glove on a Pole Tuxedo Cage Match: Ted DiBiase vs. Hacksaw Jim Duggan (3/22/85)
3) The Dirty White Boys vs. Terry Daniels & Bill Dundee (5/11/85)
4) Ric Flair vs. Terry Taylor (5/3/85)
5) The Fantastics vs. "Dr. Death" Steve Williams & Jake Roberts (4/14/85)
=) The Fantastics vs. The Midnight Express (OKC 8/9/84)
=) The Midnight Express vs. Bill Dundee & Porkchop Cash (4/6/84)
8) Hacksaw Jim Duggan vs. Buzz Sawyer (11/11/85)
9) Ric Flair vs. Terry Taylor (4/28/85)
10) Chris Adams vs. Terry Taylor (5/3/87)
11) No DQ: Ted DiBiase vs. Jim Duggan (3/8/85)
12) Dick Murdoch vs. "Dr. Death" Steve Williams (6/13/87)
13) Jake Roberts vs. Ric Flair (11/24/85)
14) No DQ, Dark Journey in a Cage: Dick Slater vs. Jake Roberts (2/28/86)
15) The Rock N Roll Express vs. The Dirty White Boys (5/11/85)
16) Mr. Wrestling II & Magnum T.A. vs. The Midnight Express (2/10/84)
17) Ted DiBiase vs. Ric Flair (11/6/85)
18) The Fantastics vs. The Midnight Express (No DQ) (9/28/84)
19) Ric Flair vs. Wahoo McDaniel (7/12/85)
20) The Midnight Express vs. Bill Watts & Stagger Lee (4/22/84)

Edit: Found my top 25 for Memphis too

1. Lawler vs Dundee - Loser Leaves Town - 30.12.1985
2. Lawler vs Idol - Hair vs Hair Cage Match - 27.04.1987
3. Lawler vs Dundee - 19.10.1985
4. Morton/Gilbert vs Fuchi/Onita - Concession Stand Brawl - 04.09.1981
5. Lawler vs Funk - Empty Arena Match - 06.04.1981
6. Fabolous Ones vs Eaton/Myers - Hair vs Titles - 16.05.1983
7. Lawler vs Dundee - Loser Leaves Town 06.06.1983
8. Lane/Koko vs Gilbert/Morton - No DQ 2/3 Falls - Oct 1981
9. Lawler vs Mantell - Barbed Wire Match - 29.03.1982
10. Fabolous Ones vs The Moondogs - Stretcher Match - 02.05.1983
11. Lawler vs Dory Funk Jr. - 30.03.1981
12. Lawler/Savage vs Rude/Bundy - No DQ - 17.09.1984
13. Flair vs Koko - 18.11.1985
14. Lawler/Mantell vs Dundee/Landel - 10.03.1986
15. Lawler vs Funk - No DQ - 23.03.1981
16. Lawler vs Mantell - Loser Leaves Town 27.03.1982
17. Lawler/Savage vs Ryde/Bundy - 10.09.1984
18. Lawler vs Bockwinkel - 25.10.1982
19. Lawler vs Flair - 14.08.1982
20. Lawler vs Mantell - 22.03.1982
21. Eaton/Koko vs Mantell/Cobra - 19.07.1982
22. Lawler vs Bockwinkel - 18.10.1982
23. Lawler/Idol vs Hansen/Ventura - 25.09.1983
24. Fabolous Ones vs Sheepherders - 22.06.1985
25. Mantell/Steve O/Fabolous Ones vs Street/Barr/Sheepherders - Stips Match - 28.03.1983

Quote:
Originally Posted by topper1 View Post
Finlay simply does not have the match list to be considered anywhere near Jumbo.
Completely agree with this. Not gonna argue with people who call Finlay great but he really doesn't have a good enough reseme of matches to be considered top 20 of all time for example, probably even top 50. Don't wanna get too deep into a Finlay discussion though because I haven't seen anywhere near enough Finlay footage to comment anymore than that on him.

Jumbo though I think is overrated. 90's Jumbo working with Misawa and that whole feud is great though but as I started the 80's All Japan set and started watching a lot of early-mid carear Jumbo I wasn't really all that impressed. He seemed ok most of the time, good sometimes but rarely great. Only up to like 84/85 though but I don't think he had enough years of being great to be considered GOAT material.
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