Your 5 Star Match Lists - Page 44 - Wrestling Forum : WWE, TNA, ROH, Wrestling Videos, Women of Wrestling Forums
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Old 08-29-2011, 06:39 AM   #431 (permalink)
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Default Re: Your 5 Star Match Lists

Bret/HBK Iron Man (and all their matches tbh) are about as engaging as a brick wall. And Bret's selling in that match is on par with Kurt Angle.

"Hey, Shawn just worked my arm over for the first half of an hour long match... I think when we move into the second half I'll forget it ever happened! Yey!"
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Old 08-29-2011, 06:41 AM   #432 (permalink)
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Default Re: Your 5 Star Match Lists

I've probably seen 80 Flair matches better than that Iron Man. And I'm a fan of it.

Also as much as I like Michaels I don't think his name should be brought up in positive light when someone talks about Flair's bumps not looking real. Unrealistic bumps almost have no negative effect on me but Michaels is one of the bigger mainstream guys to be guilty of it.
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Old 08-29-2011, 07:24 AM   #433 (permalink)
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Default Re: Your 5 Star Match Lists

Flair/Steamboat 2/3 falls is one of the greatest matches ever, they wrestled for 55 minutes and it felt like 20, thats something no other match of that length has ever done for me. Sure there are great hour long matches, but making it seem like it lasted less than half the length it was is an amazing feet in itself. Just a testament to how entertaining these guys were together, when even a simple headlock is fun as hell to watch you know your watching greatness.
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Old 08-29-2011, 11:22 AM   #434 (permalink)
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Default Re: Your 5 Star Match Lists

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Originally Posted by Seabs View Post
Watched the Windham/Flair series recently and the Worldwide and BOTB matches are both incredible, just shy of ***** for me. Crocket Cup match was still great but a clear step down from the other 2 matches.
hmm, maybe I need to watch it again. Did you see the clipped version or the handheld full length match?
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Old 08-29-2011, 12:16 PM   #435 (permalink)
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Default Re: Your 5 Star Match Lists

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I can't really see how you can make that claim about Flair.....and not HBK when I've seen you pimp his work a lot in the past. Michaels was essentially the carbon coby of Flair in elaborate and goofy bumping in the 90s as a heel, albeit more athletic and utilising more high risk offence.

I can't fathom how a Flair match can be dull, especially when you say he's one of the most entertaining people for you to watch. He's always doing something in a match to make a basic hold more entertaining, his bumping and selling alone should be enough to make a match more than dull, and well 'dull' is something I could understand someone using to describe Bret given how most of his matches were just holds and ring work with little character or crowd participation. Compare Bret working holds to someone like Arn Anderson: 1 guy is just putting on a nice armbar, the other is doing little things like working the fingers in the armbar, pulling a glorious facial expression that conveys arrogance, taunting his opponent or posing to the crowd and getting a reaction. I'll leave it up to you to deduce who's the guy merely putting on a hold and who's the one trying to make that hold more dramatic and bigger in the context of the match.

Hart/HBK being better worked than Flair/Steamboat frankly is just astonishing to me, but your opinion none the less. Hell the fact both Bret and Shawn were unco-operative in their selling and blowing off the other guy's offence should be enough evidence to demonstrate why its not on Flair/Steamboat's level. Add in the poor pacing of the match and the structuring as well as poor story that wasn't executed at all well because both guys hated the other and had no intention of making the other look good and you have a pretty crap match. Flair vs Steamboat was a perfect face vs heel dynamic, with both men going beyond ring work to demonstrate their characters with Flair being conceited and arrogant and Steamboat bumping and selling like a hard working man determined to prove he was on the level of World Champion Flair. Add in the flawless execution, bumping, selling, pacing and crowd control as well as them utllising their charisma to make 60 minute matches fly by and not drag (something HBK vs Hart never was able to do) and you have a terrific chemistry which produced sensational matches that could appeal to fans who prefer selling, to fans who prefer a working story that was elaborated and developed throughout the match, a clear face vs heel dynamic with a perfect mix of working holds and heel schtick to pop the crowd at key moments.

Flair's bumping for me is what makes his matches so good. You can say they're goofy and nonsensical but when you take into account his whole act was to put over his opponent as a world beater whilst maintaining his credibility as champion him bumping like a madman and doing exaggerated KO bumps always popped the crowd into believing their hometown wrestler was moments away from beating the champion. I'd sooner have someone like Flair try to bump emphatically in these types of matches to get the crowd interested than a guy just doing run of the mill bumping that can't generate the reaction. Hell Michaels and Steamboat and Ricky Morton all made their legacies as all time sensational FIPs and sellers by bumping emphatically and dramatically off of their opponent's offence to get the crowd behind them. Flair was essentially a heel version of them by bumping above and beyond other heels becauase it got the crowd off of their feet when he'd collapse from his opponent's offence and got them into the match. Sure it could look very 'goofy' on occasion but pro wrestling is all about trying to hook a crowd into a match, there are numerous 'lolwat' moments in every match which make wrestling look staged and a show (Savage's double axe handle off the top rope for example). Flair's act may not be the most realistic of all styles but it did what his job had to do by pulling a crowd into a match, got a baybface over as a credible opponent with how much he was bumping and made a match naturally engrossing and entertaining which is what world title matches should be. The fact he was a genius at usually bumping at key moments that added to the working story of the match is another thing to love about him.


Antoniomare007 never seen the Crockett Cup match but plan on changing that later today maybe or at the very latest tomorrow.
No comparison between HBK and Flair as far as I can see.

Shawn had the agility of a gymnast, the emotion of an oscar winning actor, the heart of a lion, the showmanship of a street entertainer and unparalleled coordination and timing. Apart from the stupid front flip into the ropes that he copied of Flair, I don't see any other similarities. Shawn's bumps were usually sickeningly authentic and often looked like he was genuinely hurt.

As for the Iron Man Match, it would have got a far greater reaction had that type of bout been done in the Steamboat/Flair era. As it was audiences had become too impatient to tolerate that kind of contest in the mid nineties and didn't appreciate its patient build. For me its a near perfect match that makes the world championship look like a million dollars. Both men so good that they can't outdo the other for a near fall in an entire sixty minutes match. Amazing chemistry, emotion and authentically structured with regards to a cautious approach that builds towards an increasingly fast pace towards the end. I only have it at four and a half stars (don't do 3/4 ratings) because of the crowd but the last half hour is comfortably the best wrestling I have ever seen.

The points you make about Flair are all sound and his approach is what brought the crowd into his matches. But then look at a guy like Bret Hart who managed to draw the crowd in whilst also making wrestling look like an authentic sporting contest. I much prefer watching Bret look genuinely hurt whilst selling than watching some guy ham it up for all its worth as his opponent has him in a headlock. Flair is the most entertaining wrestler I've ever seen but I don't just watch wrestling to be entertained. I think a great wrestler is a combination of someone who can show personality, emotion, technical fluidity, convincingly sell, effectively time the big moments and make you truly root for or against them depending on their role. Now I can tell that you think Flair ticks all that boxes and more but for me he doesn't and that's why I don't see him as one of the all time greats as an in ring performer.

Quote:
"Hey, Shawn just worked my arm over for the first half of an hour long match... I think when we move into the second half I'll forget it ever happened! Yey!"
Just to confirm that in defence of Flair, you're having a go at two men doing something that makes no sense inside of the middle of the ring. Well personally I'd much rather an athlete neglect to work an arm than see a man walk like a zombie before falling flat on his face.

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Old 08-29-2011, 12:42 PM   #436 (permalink)
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Default Re: Your 5 Star Match Lists

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they wrestled for 55 minutes and it felt like 20, thats something no other match of that length has ever done for me
Bryan Danielson vs. Roderick Strong - Vendetta
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Old 08-29-2011, 01:10 PM   #437 (permalink)
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Default Re: Your 5 Star Match Lists

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Originally Posted by bubz123 View Post
Flair/Steamboat 2/3 falls is one of the greatest matches ever, they wrestled for 55 minutes and it felt like 20
i felt this way during a kenta/marifuji 60 min draw but there's no way i'd give that 5 stars.
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Old 08-29-2011, 01:35 PM   #438 (permalink)
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Default Re: Your 5 Star Match Lists

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Originally Posted by SuperDuperSonic View Post
Bryan Danielson vs. Roderick Strong - Vendetta
Shit, was that match really that long? If so then good call, I love that match, I know their SOH match went for about an hour aswell but I wasn't as big a fan of that one.

And @bigbuxxx I wasn't saying that's the only reason why the match was so good, just one of the reasons. The fact that they kept every second of the match fun and full of drama is what I was trying to say. Everything they did made sense in it aswell, which i'm pretty sure didn't happen in KENTA/Fuji.
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Old 08-29-2011, 02:25 PM   #439 (permalink)
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Default Re: Your 5 Star Match Lists

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Originally Posted by Henry Hill View Post
No comparison between HBK and Flair as far as I can see.

Shawn had the agility of a gymnast, the emotion of an oscar winning actor, the heart of a lion, the showmanship of a street entertainer and unparalleled coordination and timing. Apart from the stupid front flip into the ropes that he copied of Flair, I don't see any other similarities. Shawn's bumps were usually sickeningly authentic and often looked like he was genuinely hurt.
Just quoting this because the rest of your post was well explained to the point where I feel we'd end up cancelling each other out and ultimately derailing the thread with a lot of talk that goes nowhere, so I'll just bring up this one point.

HBK was just as comical in his bumping as Flair, remember this is a man who was punched once and flew down an entire entrance ramp back to the ring. I generally do enjoy HBK bumping comically and emphatically as a heel because I feel heels bumping like that can envoke a much better reaction from a crowd the same way a babyface bumping and selling a beating like Morton or Steamboat by bumping in exaggerated fashion, but to me saying Flair's bumping is too goofy for you whilst praising HBK seems like a case of overlooking the same flaw in a wrestler you prefer. Its not a knock on HBK when I say he's almost on Flair's level of emphatic bumping, but I can't see how anyone would try to argue that HBK wasn't a very comical bumper especially as a heel and at times as a babyface, you can tell he watched a lot of Flair and wanted to work like him a lot especially in eating a beating.

As for the rest of your point about HBK, I do honestly think he was ultimately a better tag wrestler than he was a singles wrestler. I'd rank him a top 5 all time tag worker and just feel tags played to his strengths (amazing FIP and tremendous short term seller) whilst hiding his faults post 2002 (blowing off the selling when making his comeback). He's still been in some of my favourite matches of all time but I do feel especially post 2002 his long term selling really dwindled in numerous matches whereas tag team matches allowed him to sell terrificly without having to worry about long term selling due to how most tags break down after the hot tag. There were moments where he was consistently superb but watching a few matches of his post 2002 in the last few months made me think in some individual matches he was delving more into a Kurt Angle formula, which is a formula I've grown to loathe as time has passed.

As for Bret: I've really taken a more fonder appreciation to wrestlers who mix the ring work with mannerisms and facial expressions. My point about Arn was that he would try to act like a heel even with the most basic hold applied, i.e taunting the crowd or his opponent and trying to consistently work a crowd. Bret had his style down to a tee but I just don't get a kick out of watching guys like him almost wrestle like there isn't a crowd as opposed to wrestlers who try and work a crowd through their bumping, offence, comedy spots etc.
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Old 08-29-2011, 02:32 PM   #440 (permalink)
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Default Re: Your 5 Star Match Lists

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hmm, maybe I need to watch it again. Did you see the clipped version or the handheld full length match?
Full version.
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