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Old 02-05-2012, 02:47 PM   #3171 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2011 MOTYC Thread

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Originally Posted by RawIsWar1991 View Post
You explained why you didn't like it. That doesn't mean no-one else can think of it highly. I explained why I liked it and you explained why you didn't. I think it's a classic. You don't. None of our opinions are fact. It's subjective, you know.
no, I explained why it was bad.

if I said Work It was a bad show I'd be right, regardless of whether or not you like it. there are many people who like the Black Eyed Peas, but if I said they were bad I'd still be right. I'm not telling you not to like something, I'm telling you what you like is bad, and if you think it's good then you're wrong.

quality is way more objective than most people seem to think and I'm sick of the "oh well that's just my opinion, you can't say I'm wrong for liking something," because I guess I can't actually say you're wrong, but I would be correct in criticizing your taste or level of intelligence.

sorry to jump down your throat in your first day/week/month here, but this is something that really bothers me. also people just saying "I really liked this, it was great, ****1/2". if you're going to rate a match that high, justify it.
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Old 02-05-2012, 03:54 PM   #3172 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2011 MOTYC Thread

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no, I explained why it was bad.

if I said Work It was a bad show I'd be right, regardless of whether or not you like it. there are many people who like the Black Eyed Peas, but if I said they were bad I'd still be right. I'm not telling you not to like something, I'm telling you what you like is bad, and if you think it's good then you're wrong.

quality is way more objective than most people seem to think and I'm sick of the "oh well that's just my opinion, you can't say I'm wrong for liking something," because I guess I can't actually say you're wrong, but I would be correct in criticizing your taste or level of intelligence.

sorry to jump down your throat in your first day/week/month here, but this is something that really bothers me. also people just saying "I really liked this, it was great, ****1/2". if you're going to rate a match that high, justify it.
Once again pal, you are chatting absolute bollocks. Talent is completely subjective in the eyes of the beholder. Someone may enjoy The Black Eye Peas and they could say they are the best music group of all time and you can't say they are wrong if they back it up.

This incorporates to wrestling too. You could watch a crappy deathmatch and say it's dog toffee, but a deathmatch fan may come in here and say '***** - GOAT match' and you can't say 'You're wrong. The spots were badly timed and their was no flow to that match' because what happened in that match may appeal to them.

That Edwards/Richards match appealed to me because it was hard-hitting, it was spotty to my liking and it had a feel-good ending. This is what I want to get out of my wrestling. You may not agree and you can call me out on my tastes, but you cannot say I'm wrong for liking. If that's the point and nothing's subjective, what's the point of these star ratings and this threads anyway?
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Old 02-05-2012, 04:31 PM   #3173 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2011 MOTYC Thread

I could absolutely say someone was wrong if they said something that was bad was good.

talent and quality are in the eye of the beholder, but that doesn't mean they're entirely subjective. I can't say I'm a better guitar player than Jimi Hendrix, and then say "well it's just my opinion, you can't say I'm wrong". That's ridiculous. I can't say that the movie I made in my backyard of my friends hitting each other with foam swords is better than Citizen Kane, and then when someone suggests I might be exaggerating, respond with "well, that's just your opinion."

Subjective opinions can be wrong, if not factually then conventionally. And even if you want to hide behind the "well it's just my opinion" defense, which I guess you're entitled to do, then I'm entirely entitled to judge you as having shitty taste, and to tell you that that's how I'm judging you because you apparently like your wrestling choreographed specifically for people with short-term memory problems.

Richards vs. Edwards did nothing to reward anyone who put any thought into it and only slightly more to get people to actually remember what took place, and therefore it was a bad wrestling match. You can say that's just my opinion, but what purpose does that serve? Think about things and try and understand them better, rather than just saying you like them.
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Old 02-05-2012, 09:47 PM   #3174 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2011 MOTYC Thread

I pretty much go on the Nervosa approach when it comes to five stars.

I have to be able to defend just about every possible flaw in the match that other people come up with if I truly believe it is a five star and bring up points as to why it deserves the five stars.

Which is why, though I don't do ratings here (just some random opinions), I give five stars rarely. There is a difference between entertainment value and overall craft. Both need to be there on the optimum level for the five.


So, I agree that that Richards/Edwards match doesn't deserve a five. To me, it was more like a three-ish.
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Old 02-06-2012, 11:20 AM   #3175 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2011 MOTYC Thread

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I could absolutely say someone was wrong if they said something that was bad was good.
That is opinionated. That's like you saying Strong vs. Edwards at DBD was great where I declared it as horse shit. Doesn't mean I'm wrong but doesn't mean you are right ether. Even if there is a line in there, it doesn't necessarily put me in the clear to call you absolute dumbass fuckwit who shouldn't be slapping people with insults when half the shit he rates is utter garbage. There should be maturity here even if it is a little in regards to someone else's viewpoint.
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Old 02-06-2012, 01:33 PM   #3176 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2011 MOTYC Thread

Call me dumb if you want (that's what I did originally). Won't stop me from saying that people who liked Davey/Eddie have no taste and by the conventional standards of taste their assessments are wrong.

there's a thing called standard narrative structure and it's standard for a reason: because that's what works best. it's really easy to say fuck that, I like explosions and nothing else, but movies that don't adhere to any sort of structure are not good movies by conventionally objective standards.

that doesn't mean there's no room for subjectivity, but there's objectively good things and objectively bad things, and a match full of bad things with few good things is not a good match.

regarding Strong/Edwards, I never tried to say it was a ***** match, or perfect, or whatever. I said Strong's performance shone through the overbooked garbage finishes and Super Eddie shit. If you didn't like Strong's performance, that's fine, but at no point did I overlook all the flaws in the match (of which there were many) and say it was perfect, like so many have said and are still saying about the BITW match.

overlooking the flaws and saying the match was perfect is wrong. period.
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Old 02-06-2012, 01:46 PM   #3177 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2011 MOTYC Thread

You know jawbreaker, there's more than just one type of match-structure. And this is not me talking about Davey/Eddie match, this is me talking about your generalization when it comes to "structuring", which is something you constantly push through your posts.
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Old 02-07-2012, 10:18 AM   #3178 (permalink)
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You know jawbreaker, there's more than just one type of match-structure. And this is not me talking about Davey/Eddie match, this is me talking about your generalization when it comes to "structuring", which is something you constantly push through your posts.
oh there's absolutely more than one type of match structure. there's a few archetypes that work well, and matches are generally better for adhering to them. that's "generally", though, and I don't penalize matches for not adhering to one of the archetypes if they do something else that works (see: Roderick Strong vs. Willie Mack).

"structure" to me is whatever builds drama in a match. it's really easy to do if you adhere to a simple narrative, and most guys should stick to doing that because they're not good enough to try creating their own structure. some guys (Steen, Finlay, Danielson, Hero, Kingston, Nigel, a few others) can do things differently and they're generally the guys who I think are the best.

Davey's got his own structure that he's been trying to push in the last year or so (see his match with Willie Mack for the most transparent example) and it's a pretty shitty structure, because it basically relies on drama to build itself through the match going a long time and doesn't reward anyone for thinking about it or invite any insights into the inner workings of the story. it's the kind of style that invites you to turn your brain off and enjoy the sweaty men kicking and throwing each other. which is good if you don't like to think about wrestling, but I like wrestling that invites me to consider exactly why they're doing everything that they do, and rewards me for figuring it out. that's a whole lot easier to do if you build on top of a simple structure and don't try and create something new.
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Old 02-07-2012, 11:02 AM   #3179 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2011 MOTYC Thread

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Davey's got his own structure that he's been trying to push in the last year or so (see his match with Willie Mack for the most transparent example) and it's a pretty shitty structure, because it basically relies on drama to build itself through the match going a long time and doesn't reward anyone for thinking about it or invite any insights into the inner workings of the story. it's the kind of style that invites you to turn your brain off and enjoy the sweaty men kicking and throwing each other. which is good if you don't like to think about wrestling, but I like wrestling that invites me to consider exactly why they're doing everything that they do, and rewards me for figuring it out. that's a whole lot easier to do if you build on top of a simple structure and don't try and create something new.
Well I'm the exact opposite of that. I hardly ever watch a match and wonder why the moves are being etc.. So yeah I kind of just watch wrestling without thinking about why things are done (not always, there's definitely matches where stuff bothers me because it makes no sence, but it doesn't happen that often for me).
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Old 02-08-2012, 01:15 PM   #3180 (permalink)
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Default Re: The 2011 MOTYC Thread

Here's a list of everything i've seen which i think is worthy (still waiting for DGUK shows but still):


1) CM Punk vs John Cena - WWE Championship - Money In The Bank 2011 - ****3/4
2) Davey Richards vs Eddie Edwards - ROH World Championship - Best In The World 2011 - ****3/4
3) Seth Rollins vs Dean Ambrose - FCW 02.10.2011 - ****3/4
4) Kevin Steen vs El Generico - Ladder Match - PWG World Championship - Steen Wolf - ****3/4
5) Kotaro Suzuki vs Eddie Edwards - GHC Jr. Heavyweight Championship - NOAH 29.01.2011 - ****1/2
6) American Wolves vs Shelton Benjamin & Charlie Haas ROH Honor Takes Center Stage Chapter 2 - ****1/2
7) Hiroshi Tanahashi vs Shinsuke Nakamura - IWGP Heavyweight Championship - NJPW 03.05.2011 - ****1/2
8) CM Punk vs John Cena - WWE Championship - Summerslam 2011 - ****1/2
9) Eddie Edwards vs Chris Hero - ROH World Championship - Revolution Canada - ****1/2
10) Kings Of Wrestling vs LAX ROH Manhattan Mayhem IV - ****1/2

11) Eddie Edwards vs Roderick Strong - ROH World Championship ROH Manhattan Mayhem IV - ****1/2
12) Go Shiozaki vs Katsuhiko Nakajima - NOAH European Navigation 2011 Night 2 - ****1/2
13) Eddie Edwards vs Roderick Strong - Ringmaster Challenge ROH Death Before Dishonor IX - ****1/2
14) Kevin Steen & Akira Tozawa vs El Generico & Ricochet PWG All Star Weekend 8 Night 1 - ****1/2
15) Seth Rollins vs Damien Sandow - FCW 15 Championship - FCW 30.10.2011 - ****1/2
16) Kings Of Wrestling vs Takeshi Morishima & Shuhei Taniguchi - NOAH European Navigation 2011 Night 2 - ****1/2
17) Akira Tozawa & BxB Hulk vs SHINGO & YAMATO - Open The Twin Gate Championships - Dragon Gate 25.12.2011 - ****1/4
18) Seth Rollins vs Dean Ambrose - FCW 15 Championship - FCW 18.09.2011 - ****1/4
19) Undertaker vs Triple H - No Holds Barred - WrestleMania 27 - ****1/4
20) Eddie Edwards vs Christopher Daniels - 2/3 Falls - ROH TV Championship ROH 9th Anniversary Show - ****1/4
21) El Generico vs Kevin Steen PWG BOLA 2011 - ****1/4
22) Randy Orton vs Christian - World Heavyweight Championship - Over The Limit 2011 - ****1/4
23) Claudio Castagnoli vs El Generico - PWG World Championship PWG Kurt RusselReunion II - ****1/4
24) Kings Of Wrestling vs Kevin Steen & Akira Tozawa PWG DDT4 2011 - ****1/4
25) Davey Richards vs TJ Perkins ROH SoCal Showdown II - ****1/4

26) Edge vs Rey Mysterio vs Kane vs Wade Barrett vs Drew McIntyre vs Big Show - Elimination Chamber Match - World Heavyweight Championship - Elimination Chamber 2011 - ****1/4
27) Austin Aries vs Low Ki vs Jack Evans vs Zema Ion - Destination X 2011 - ****1/4
28) Young Bucks vs El Generico & Ricochet - PWG World Tag Team Championships PWG Card Subject To Change III - ****1/4
29) CM Punk vs Alberto Del Rio - WWE Championship - Survivor Series 2011 - ****1/4
30) Young Bucks vs Kings Of Wrestling - PWG World Tag Team Championships PWG BOLA 2011 - ****1/4
31) Seth Rollins vs Damien Sandow - FCW 15 Championship - FCW 13.11.2011 - ****1/4
32) PAC vs Ricochet - Open The Brave Gate Championship - Dragon Gate 19.11.2011 - ****1/4
33) Hiroshi Tanahashi vs Hirooki Goto - IWGP Heavyweight Championship NJPW 18.06.2011 - ****1/4
34) Akira Tozawa vs BxB Hulk DGUSA United We Stand - ****1/4
35) Davey Richards vs Claudio Castagnoli ROH Defy Or Deny - ****1/4
36) Chris Hero vs KENTA - NOAH & wXw Genesis In Germany - ****1/4
37) Hiroshi Tanahashi vs Satoshi Kojima NJPW IWGP Heavyweight Championship - 20.02.2011 - ****1/4
38) Davey Richards vs Zack Sabre Jr. - wXw 16 Carat Gold Tournament Day 2 - ****1/4
39) Davey Richards vs Roderick Strong ROH Honor Takes Center Stage Chapter 1 - ****1/4
40) Kings Of Wrestling vs American Wolves - Revolution USA - ****1/4
41) Akira Tozawa vs Chris Hero PWG All Star Weekend 8 Night 2 - ****1/4
42) Hiroshi Tanahashi vs Yuji Nagata - IWGP Heavyweight Championship - NJPW 04.12.2011 - ****1/4
American Wolves vs All Night Express ROH Gateway Of Honor - ****1/4
43) El Generico vs Roderick Strong - Steel Cage Match - No Escape - ****1/4
44) CM Punk vs Dolph Ziggler - Raw 21.11.2011 - ****1/4
45) Michael Elgin vs Eddie Edwards vs Jay Briscoe vs Mark Briscoe vs Kyle O'Reilly vs Roderick Strong - Survival Of The Fittest Match - ROH Survival Of The Fittest 2011 - ****1/4
46) Kevin Steen vs Chris Hero PWG Kurt RusselReunion II - ****1/4
47) Shelton Benjamin & Charlie Haas vs Kings Of Wrestling ROH SoCal Showdown II - ****1/4
48) Terry Funk vs Jerry Lawler - No Holds Barred - NEW Autumn Ambush 2011 - ****
49) Christian vs Alberto Del Rio - Ladder Match - World Heavyweight Championship - Extreme Rules 2011 - ****
50) Daniel Bryan vs Sheamus vs Kane vs Wade Barrett vs Cody Rhodes vs Sin Cara vs Justin Gabriel vs Heath Slater - Money In The Bank Ladder Match - Money In The Bank 2011 - ****

51) Hiroshi Tanahashi vs Giant Bernard - IWGP Heavyweight Championship - NJPW 18.07.2011 - ****
52) Takashi Sugiura vs Giant Bernard - GHC Heavyweight Championship - NOAH 05.03.2011 - ****
53) Go Shiozaki vs KENTA - GHC Heavyweight Championship - NOAH 27.11.2011 - ****
54) Roderick Strong vs El Generico - ROH World Championship - ROH SoCal Showdown II - ****
55) Seth Rollins vs Dean Ambrose - FCW 15 Championship - FCW 28.08.2011 - ****
56) Hiroshi Tanahashi vs Yuji Nagata - IWGP Heavyweight Championship - 03.04.2011 - ****
57) Edge vs Dolph Ziggler - World Heavyweight Championship - Royal Rumble 2011 - ****
58) Christopher Daniels vs Eddie Edwards - ROH TV Championship - ROH on HDNet 31.01.2011 - ****
59) Randy Orton vs Christian - No Holds Barred - World Heavyweight Championship - Summerslam 2011 - ****
60) Christopher Daniels vs Davey Richards - Pure Wrestling Rules ROH Manhattan Mayhem IV - ****
61) Young Bucks vs Kevin Steen & Akira Tozawa PWG DDT4 2011 - ****
62) Eddie Edwards vs Christopher Daniels - ROH World Championship ROH Honor Takes Center Stage Chapter 1 - ****
63) Takashi Sugiura vs Dave Mastiff - GHC Heavyweight Championship - NOAH European Navigation Night 1 - ****
64) Christopher Daniels vs Claudio Castagnoli - ROH TV Championship ROH Only The Strong Will Survive - ****
65) Davey Richards, Shelton Benjamin & Charlie Haas vs Roderick Strong & Kings Of Wrestling ROH Worlds Greatest - ****
66) El Generico vs Kotaro Suzuki - wXw 16 Carat Gold Tournament Day 1 - ****
67) Zack Sabre Jr. vs KENTA - NOAH European Navigation 2011 Night 2 - ****
68) Young Bucks vs American Wolves PWG DDT4 2011 - ****
69) CIMA & Ricochet vs PAC & Dragon Kid - Open The Twin Gate Championships - Dragon Gate 17.07.2011 - ****
70) Kings Of Wrestling vs Shelton Benjamin & Charlie Haas - ROH World Tag Team Championships ROH Honor Takes Center Stage Chapter 1 - ****
71) Chris Hero vs TJ Perkins ROH Defy Or Deny - ****
72) Kevin Steen vs PAC PWG Eight - ****
73) PAC vs Naruki Doi - Open The Brave Gate Championship - Dragon Gate 05.05.2011 - ****
74) Kota Ibushi vs Ryusuke Taguchi - NJPW 10.06.2011 - ****
75) Davey Richards vs Low Ki PWG Kurt RusselReunion II - ****

76) Masato Yoshino & PAC vs Naruki Doi & Ricochet DGUSA United: Philly - ****
77) Triple H vs CM Punk - No DQ Match - Night Of Champions 2011 - ****
78) Seth Rollins vs Damien Sandow - FCW 15 Championship - FCW 19.06.2011 - ****
79) Takashi Sugiura vs Kensuke Sasaki - NOAH 23.07.2011 - ****
80) John Cena vs. Randy Orton vs. John Morrison vs. R-Truth vs. CM Punk vs. King Sheamus Elimination Chamber Match Elimination Chamber 2011 - ****
81) Briscoes vs All Night Express ROH Honor Takes Center Stage Chapter 2 - ****
82) American Wolves vs Adam Cole & Kyle O'Reilly - No Escape - ****
83) Prince Devitt & Ryusuke Taguchi vs Kota Ibushi & Kenny Omega NJPW 23.01.2011 - ****
84) Takashi Sugiura vs Claudio Castagnoli - GHC Heavyweight Championship - NOAH & wXw Genesis In Germany - ****
85) Masaaki Mochizuki vs YAMATO - Open The Dream Gate Championship - Dragon Gate 05.05.2011 - ****
86) Kings Of Wrestling, Roderick Strong & Christopher Daniels vs Davey Richards, El Generico & Briscoes ROH Champions vs All Stars - ****
87) Randy Orton vs Christian - World Heavyweight Championship - Capitol Punishment 2011 - ****
88) Davey Richards vs Chris Hero ROH Only The Strong Will Survive - ****
89) Charlie Haas & Shelton Benjamin vs Adam Cole & Kyle O'Reilly - ROH World Tag Team Championships - ROH Gateway Of Honor - ****
90) Davey Richards & Briscoes vs Roderick Strong & Kings Of Wrestling - ROH on HDNet 04.04.2011 - ****
91) Claudio Castagnoli vs El Generico PWG BOLA 2011 - ****
92) Christian vs Randy Orton - World Heavyweight Championship - Smackdown 06.05.2011 - ****
93) Roderick Strong vs El Generico ROH Honor Takes Center Stage Chapter 2 - ****
Bad Intentions vs No Limit - IWGP Tag Team Champions - NJPW 03.05.2011 - ****
94) LDRS Of The New School vs Adam Cole & Kyle O'Reilly - wXw 16 Carat Gold Tournament Day 3 -****
95) Davey Richards vs Kenny Omega - NJPW 08.06.2011 - ****
96) Young Bucks vs Adam Cole & Kyle O'Reilly - PWG World Tag Team Championships - Steen Wolf - ****
97) Akira Tozawa vs YAMATO - No Ropes Match - Dragon Gate 16.09.2011 - ****
98) Cody Rhodes vs Rey Mysterio - WrestleMania 27 - ****
99) AJ Styles vs Bully Ray - Last Man Standing - Slammiversary 2011 - ****
100) Eddie Edwards vs Roderick Strong - ROH World Championship - Supercard Of Honor VI - ****

101) Yoshihiro Takayama vs KENTA - NOAH 15.01.2011 - ****
102) PAC vs Naruki Doi - Open The Brave Gate Championship - Dragon Gate 05.05.2011 - ****
103) Seth Rollins & Richie Steamboat vs Los Aviadores - FCW 05.06.2011 - ****
104) Eddie Edwards vs Michael Elgin ROH Defy Or Deny - ****
105) Davey Richards vs Eddie Edwards - ROH World Championship ROH Final Battle 2011 - ****
106) Takashi Sugiura vs Trevor Murdoch - GHC Heavyweight Championship - NOAH 21.03.2011 - ****
107) Claudio Castagnoli vs Chris Hero - PWG World Championship PWG Eight - ****
108) Randy Orton vs CM Punk - WrestleMania 27 - ****
109) John Cena vs Rey Mysterio - WWE Championship - Raw 25.07.2011 - ****
110) El Generico vs Christopher Daniels - ROH TV Championship - Best In The World 2011 - ****
111) Jushin Liger vs Great Sasuke - NJPW 28.05.2011 - ****
112) CM Punk vs Rey Mysterio - Capitol Punishment 2011 - ****
113) Kotaro Suzuki vs Ricky Marvin - GHC Jr. Heavyweight Championship - NOAH 08.05.2011 - ****

Last edited by Mr Joe Perfect : 02-10-2012 at 04:13 AM.
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