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Old 11-01-2011, 04:15 PM   #3531 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official Indy DVD Thread

And I meant Hero's best match this year btw. Way better than his matches with Claudio.
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Old 11-01-2011, 04:32 PM   #3532 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official Indy DVD Thread

Just out of curiosity Shirley, have you seen any of Masters work on Superstars? Or should I say have you given any of it a chance?
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Old 11-01-2011, 04:37 PM   #3533 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official Indy DVD Thread

I don't see how Eddie made Hero look good in that match, Hero was clearly the one carrying that match. That match also isn't as good as Hero/Claudio from Eight, Hero/KENTA, Hero/Sabre Jr, Hero/Mack and Hero/Tozawa are all either just as good or better than that match aswell. Just sayin'.
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Old 11-01-2011, 04:46 PM   #3534 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official Indy DVD Thread

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- Mike Quackenbush & Jigsaw vs Steenerico is one of the best indy tag matches i've seen.
.
Know I'm a little late in responding, but I've been thinking the same thing for years. Criminally underrated/overlooked, never mentioned with best ROH tag matches or Steenerico matches for that matter, and never understood why. Everything has a purpose, there's no wasted motion, the characters are great, it builds well, the crowd gets invested, and there's no overkill. One of the most perfect matches within its given time that I've seen. Not big on star ratings but at the very, very least I would go ****1/4 only because of the length, but it's a hell of a good time. One of my favorite matches.
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Old 11-01-2011, 04:53 PM   #3535 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official Indy DVD Thread

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Just out of curiosity Shirley, have you seen any of Masters work on Superstars? Or should I say have you given any of it a chance?
Just watched that.

Great selling by Masters in that match, should have at least gave him a IC or US title run. Master could have worked as one of their main event faces too.
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Old 11-01-2011, 05:41 PM   #3536 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official Indy DVD Thread

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Originally Posted by Caponex75 View Post
Eddie Edwards is just being picked out because it is that time of the year.
Picking this out because the rest of your point was well argued and thus isn't needed to be discussed. The above is though, that's a complete naiive statement to make since you cannot in anyway prove it. Most of the people I've ever seen criticise Edwards have done so in a proper manner with valid points in concise fashion, to dismiss their arguments as simply 'that time of the month' is frankly embarassing. I haven't ever liked Edwards, because I started watching him at a time when his style much like Kurt Angle's and Marafuji's style is something I no longer prefer in matches, younger 2004 me could have adored Edwards but present Caida is a much different fan of workers and Edwards is someone I can't ever see myself liking unless he does a major 360 asap and starts watching the greats at eating a control segment and working on how to spread out and protect his impressive moves so he can control a crowd and not lose them when he's not pulling contrived sequences out of his arse.


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Originally Posted by Caponex75 View Post
Get over yourself. Eddie has had the best match with Elgin thus far and O'Reily getting murdered by Eddie was hell of fun. He also went out of his way to make Hero look amazing in their title match in what is Hero's best match by a mile.
Not seen the Elgin match and have little desire to, but the Hero match is something I do plan to watch and I'll be shocked if I come out of it thinking Hero isn't the one making the match as great as it is, most of the reviews I've seen of the match praised characteristics/areas that Hero shines in and where Edwards usually falters/can be found wanting. Jawbreaker did give me hope however that Eddie may put in a very good selling effort of the worked over limb.

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Originally Posted by Caponex75 View Post
Shake head.
Not a clue what that is supposed to mean, Legend and Crabtree both dodged the main argument and responded with quick 'no u' esque responses that did more to try and mock me then defend/support their point of view

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Originally Posted by Shirley Crabtree III View Post
I think I've made it clear how ridiculous the "no drama", "no reaction", "no viewer investment" criticisms are. All complete fallacies.
I'll think you find you did nothing of the sort, you just said it wasn't worth your time arguing the point as you didn't believe it and tried to move on. You didn't demonstrate nor provide matches where Eddie controlled a crowd marvellously or even touched upon why my argument doesn't stand up. You just did your best to destroy my point without even breaking a sweat in typing a response. Congrats, your years of annoying the TNA A-Listers has made you resort to their level in dodging a valid point.


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Originally Posted by Shirley Crabtree III View Post
I don't really want to waste OW space discussing people that have failed to deliver, in the WWE, but if you must...
'Failed to deliver' is such a BS claim, he didn't have a bad match when he shined in early 2010 until his release and worked as well as he could in limited time on Superstars, often having matches that were great TV matches with good selling, workover and good build to the finish. The Ziggler match in particular was such a throwback to the 80s with a sleeper hold and the masterlock being hyped up huge throughout the match and presented as a match winner for whoever locked their submission on first, thus making the struggles for control and counter sequences mean something as you bought both men's finishers as match enders.


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Originally Posted by Shirley Crabtree III View Post
John Cena is largely responsible for the deceleration of the growth of the post-Lesnar WWE. He stands as the only Superman-pushed star in living WWE memory not to instigate a wrestling boom. It's now a decade since wrestling was last socially relevant. Not good.
You missed my point on the Cena comparison, you're point about Edwards having a great year only to still have critics sounded like you were arguing in your opinion he'd earned to not have any detractors. My Cena point was that the man has put on an abundance of quality matches in his WWE career as well as helping financially especially in 2007 and 2008 yet he was still perfectly capable and worthy of attracting criticism since whilst he still possesses his ring quality he is no longer as consistently great as he was 3 years ago. Edwards could put on 50 ****+ matches next year in your eyes, but since you're opinion isn't objective fact he'd still be deserving of criticism if those matches were horrible in the opinion of another poster.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirley Crabtree III View Post
If you think that Chris Masters' was "over" on a C-Show with canned audio, then there's very little that I can add. I don't know where the evidence of his body of amazing, dramatic, deep and meaningful work is. All I've seen are 5mins, inconsequential, ultra-choreographed, filler matches. As a disposable WWE extra, if he ever had any talent, he never had the opportunity to show it. He's certainly never had a Windham-esque broadway. Any claim that Masters did have talent would have to be based entirely on guesswork.
Actually the live reports and comments from the likes of DVDVR guys advocating how well Masters was over considering his opponent and lack of regular air time would suggest the man was entertaining the crowds on a regular basis, I can also think of numerous matches in his Superstars time where you could clearly see and here audience participation through clapping or chanting in favour of Masters. His 'body of work' is that throughout 2010 and early 2011 he didn't disappoint in any match and had good-great matches regularly with the likes of Primo, Chavo, Ziggler, Mcintyre and co. His matches at the minimum always featured a great workover and selljob and were paced nicely, he was never going to have ****1/2 matches every week in 7-11 minutes but since when has endless awesome matches been the sign of a great worker? Regal and Finlay may have 15 'awesome awesome' matches between them especially with how little of Finlay exists from Europe and how underutilised Regal has been his entire career, yet I can't imagine you calling them bad workers.

Masters made the most of every opportunity he got and the fact he was being praised by notoriously 'picky' fans from DVDVR, WKO, PWO, Cal's site etc showed his hard work had paid off. Not a clue where you're getting 'choreographical' from, Masters matches never looked contrived or hokey or hard to buy into, they could have been taped in the 70s and 80s and you'd never have spotted the difference with how simple and basic the matches were worked.

Nice to see you again deliberately took my comparison to Windham and turned it into a case of Masters not having competed in world class broadways. The point which was well explained is that like Barry, Masters for a big guy seemed such an easy FIP worker you'd have thought he was Mysterio or Ricky Morton. Seeing the likes of Chavo and Ziggler who were noticeably smaller than Masters control large portions of the matches and never seeming out of place or something you couldn't buy was a testament to how good Masters bumped and sold so that it seemed natural and was easy to sit through.

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Old 11-01-2011, 06:02 PM   #3537 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official Indy DVD Thread

I really don't see the point in getting into a long-winded, pointless debate about such a subjective, uh, subject. That's why I didn't respond with a series of 'epic' fucking paragraphs. What do I think I'm going to achieve, brainwash you all or something? Please. I simply raised the topic because I was becoming annoyed that the WF's legion of Eddie haters were getting in their array of ceaseless snide digs over and over and over and over and... well, it was getting really fucking boring. You don't like Eddie Edwards. Good for you. Now please stop trying to convince those of us who don't think he's Satan in spandex that he's a worse in-ring performer than Kevin Nash. Give it a rest.
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Old 11-01-2011, 06:06 PM   #3538 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official Indy DVD Thread

Never said Nash was better than him.

Never said you had to hate him, merely defended my reasoning as to why I wasn't hating on him because my bi monthly 'Edwards dig' radar was sounding.

At the end of the day, I said I didn't care for him and you bitched about how I was some wannabee bandwagonner because you didn't like what you heard, I merely said if you were going to be so annoyed with my opinion you may as well argue it better than sarcastic wit designed to make my point look weak.

You've put words in my mouth continually throughout and have acted like I'm calling Edwards the worst thing to hit the world since Marafuji heard matches can go 30 minutes.
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Old 11-01-2011, 06:25 PM   #3539 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official Indy DVD Thread

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Originally Posted by Caponex75 View Post
Well this happens to many wrestlers. Briscoes were the MVPs of 2007 by a mile and got shitted on by everyone right after. The same happened with Nigel, Black, and even Richards. Brutal but that is just how it happens. Now it seems Eddie is getting it randomly. I thought his reign was great but all his matches just had shitty finishes. The only real bad match he has had was against Roderick at DBD. Man.....that match was horrible.
The DBD match was actually excellent. Granted, that was pretty much entirely due to Roddy turning in a world-beating performance despite Eddie being seemingly determined to prove anyone who says anything bad about him right and the match being an overbooked mess.

Black had a lot of the same flaws as Eddie, as does Richards. Nigel got turned on by an entirely different audience, the one that thinks Edwards is good.

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Get over yourself. Eddie has had the best match with Elgin thus far and O'Reily getting murdered by Eddie was hell of fun. He also went out of his way to make Hero look amazing in their title match in what is Hero's best match by a mile.
The Hero defense was probably Eddie's best singles match ever, and while it wasn't entirely Hero, Eddie by no means carried him. He didn't detract from the match is I guess the best way to put it.

The Elgin match, on the other hand, was a piece of shit and it was entirely Eddie's fault.

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Originally Posted by Caponex75 View Post
Eddie is a flawed wrestler but every other wrestler out there is as well. My current wrestler of the year(RKO) isn't even flawless but doesn't mean he is bad. The IWC's baby boy Daniel Bryan has his fair share of flaws to but that doesn't mean he isn't one of the best.
Every wrestler has flaws, but Eddie's detract from the quality of his matches more than others. I don't get why this is so hard to understand. Like, I pimp Adam Cole and Johnny Goodtime and Tommaso Ciampa all over the place, and they're all sloppy as shit from time to time. That doesn't bother me, obviously, because I care a lot more about story than execution. Edwards is an excellent executor, but I've already explained why I think he's an awful storyteller, and that to me is why he's not a good wrestler.

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Originally Posted by Shirley Crabtree III View Post
Edwards has been, comfortably, one of the top three most over acts in North American underground wrestling all year - drawing record breaking attendances and iPPV buyrates for ROH. He's had MOTYC candidate matches, in more than one promotion, and has been an important part of, at least, two of the most dramatic wrestling moments of the year. This is all before Final Battle has even come around.

Any talk of Edwards not being able to get the desired reaction, not being able to create drama and not doing his job properly is a waste of everyone's time.

Some people need to learn to aim their criticism at a target that's within their reach.
this argument again? they draw, therefore they're above critique?

I'm rewatching Richards/Edwards from BITW right now. There's a bit about half an hour in where Edwards applies the Achilles Lock in the center of the ring to absolutely no reaction. Seriously. Everyone in the Hammerstein is silent. About a minute later there's a rollup, with again, absolutely no reaction. This is the way Edwards won the title and nobody buys it.

Then they do a strike exchange that feels forced and devoid of character, Edwards kicks out of a whole bunch of shit and there's maybe four people across from the hard cam who react, and they do so halfheartedly at best. And then there's the finish, and the reaction is one of "oh wow he kicked him really hard" not "oh wow the match is about to be over".

Seriously, if you think there was any drama created in that match, look at the crowd and think again. Everyone is practically sitting on their hands in the first few rows. It was absolutely amazing in a kind of pathetic way.
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Old 11-01-2011, 06:49 PM   #3540 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official Indy DVD Thread

Anybody know who/where i can get dvd copies of old 80s territory supercards/ppvs from ? NWA, AWA, WCCW, Mid South, Memphis etc ? Thanks.
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