Lucha Libre Match/Show Discussion/Reviews - Page 47 - Wrestling Forum : WWE, TNA, Debate League, Wrestling Videos, Women of Wrestling Forums
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Old 06-10-2012, 01:58 AM   #461 (permalink)
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Default Re: Lucha Libre Match/Show Discussion/Reviews

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Originally Posted by TelkEvolon View Post
I feel like that is more of a match for a real Lucha fan, not someone trying to get into it.
I've been a lucha lover for a while and gave the match a go out of curiosity and didn't think it was anything special. I wasn't really seeing things as 'weak', but it didn't feel like I was watching a good match, either.
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Old 06-10-2012, 07:51 AM   #462 (permalink)
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Default Re: Lucha Libre Match/Show Discussion/Reviews

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Originally Posted by Violent By Design View Post
some of those might not be flashy enough to break him in.

though speak more on the bold, i am intredasted.
I suggest Bam Bam matches with Demus 3:16/Pequeno Damian. Really, I should of just said CMLL mini Division from 2008. You can't go wrong with any of those matches. I remember watching the C3 stream every Saturday just to see their matches.

He might be turn off by the flash, so I suggest those matches because they have the BIG TIME match feel and two of those matches is legit classics in my personal opinion.
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Old 06-10-2012, 08:59 AM   #463 (permalink)
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Default Re: Lucha Libre Match/Show Discussion/Reviews

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Originally Posted by Yeah1993 View Post
I've been a lucha lover for a while and gave the match a go out of curiosity and didn't think it was anything special. I wasn't really seeing things as 'weak', but it didn't feel like I was watching a good match, either.
Out of curiosity and a willingness to further lucha discourse, what exactly did you like/dislike about it? While I agree that it wasn't necessarily anything special, it still felt like a 'good' match to me. I am particularly fond of watching up-and-coming talent try to make a name for themselves/piecing together a decent contest.

The CMLL product feels pretty stagnant much of the time but I watch a lot of it and finding a match that stands out in any way is a bit of a chore.
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Old 06-10-2012, 10:16 AM   #464 (permalink)
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Default Re: Lucha Libre Match/Show Discussion/Reviews

Probably sounded like I was underselling it because I sure didn't think it was bad, but it didn't strike me as....anything, really. Just an OK match with OK stuff in it. I suppose I kind of like something in a match to really stick out; that match was perfetcly fine work, but they didn't really do anything that felt different to a regular "by the numbers" sort of match. They were doing nifty moves and pulling them off nicely. Sort of a cliche, but I kind want a 'story' to a match. This is the only 2012 lucha match I've watched so far, so maybe I missed some back-feud things, but...was either guy a rudo? Neither guy came across like it.

The match was definitely tilted more towards 'good' than 'bad', because it wasn't bad at all. the kind of thing I didn't mind watching for twelve minutes, but not something I thought was like 'three stars' (for lack of a better way of putting it)
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Old 06-10-2012, 12:02 PM   #465 (permalink)
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Default Re: Lucha Libre Match/Show Discussion/Reviews

New Rules Change for CMLL Tags. Credit:thecubsfan

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CMLL’s new tag rules

Over the last couple of months, there’s been one very evident change in CMLL’s matches. It’s nothing that’s been formerly announced, and there doesn’t appear to be a specific moment where the change took place, but it’s something the luchadors have clearly been instructed about, and have fallen in line with over the course of this spring. It’s a stylistic change casual fans probably do not notice, but is evident if you compare a match from June to January.

CMLL is now enforcing ten counts on tags. If luchadors aren’t out of the ring at the count of ten, their team is disqualified and the fall is over. That disqualification has only been used twice [1] to my knowledge so far, in the first fall of the 05/14 DF vs Pegasso match in Arena Puebla. The announcers didn’t know why Tirantes called the DQ was called [2], but Tirantes was very obviously speed counting to 10, just as he’d do for count out of the ring finish is done for count out finishes.

The same occurred on 05/27 in Arena Coliseo, in the second fall of the Avernos vs Panther/Shocker/Porky match. That time, the referee yelled out each number to make it clear, though still no one had any idea what was going on (and the luchadors sold confusion.)

This is not really about another potential DQ finish [3], it’s about how it’s changed the flow off all the other matches. Gone are the days of three rudos lingering in the ring, yelling at the crowd and waiting for a tecnico to roll in for a kick. It’s now one rudo does a couple of moves, tag [5] to the next rudo, that guy does some moves, and maybe every one does a corner charge bit quick, but they’re not hanging around after.

CMLL is only using this rule as a DQ very sparingly, but the luchadors are reacting as though they’re risking significant trouble by breaking it. That means there’s something going on beyond what we’re seeing in the ring – verbal warnings, fines, a strong argument for doing things this way now – that’s keeping everyone in line. Luchadors are independent free-thinker types who do not all share the same opinion on how to have a good match. Any uniform change by all, young or experienced, stick out as something very atypical.

Enforcing the ten count fundamentally changes the basic story of a lucha libre match. The idea has always been that tecnicos are generally better than the rudos at wrestling technique than the rudos, and the rudos can only gain an advantage by cheating. In CMLL trios, the rudos have cheated by ignoring the tag rules and using a numerical advantage. Averno can’t stop Mistico one on one, but if Mephisto and Ephesto are also in the ring helping him out, at least one will be able to get in a shot from behind, and Mistico will need some sort of miracle comeback (or rudo laziness) to defeat them. Now, Mephisto and Ephesto are forced to stay on the apron and watch, but Averno still controls Mistico for a while because something needs to be done to set up the comeback. The rudo is now equally as talented as the tecnico, able to get the better of him one on one for a portion of the match, and does not necessarily need to cheat to do so. The story of the matches has changed.

There are ways of getting around the rule enforcement change. The TRT guys, Terrible especially, have been doing a great job of having one guy sneak in the ring from behind to get a cheap shot, allowing their partner to start with an unfair advantage. Others are adapting by doing their old bits, but just standing legally on the apron while doing them. The Tuareg grab their opponents legs near the corner to set up Skandalo’s low blow corner dropkick, and sometimes just drag tecnicos over to their corner so everyone within arms reach can get in a shot. The rule itself seems to be downplayed when it’s time to do the comeback spot itself. Many of the typical bits (like “everyone does a move to everyone else) are based on all the rudos being in the ring to start the sequence, and they’ve not gone anywhere. The chaotic multiple dive finishes aren’t going anywhere either. That still leaves the bulk of the rudo segments where they’re no long winning because they’re cheating, but because it’s just their time to win.

Limiting matches to mostly one on one brings CMLL makes visually closer to those elsewhere in the world. It also helps the credibility of the referees. They’re no longer stuck standing in the background, asking two guys to leave while being completely ignored. They now look more in control of the match rather than unwilling passengers. They are not getting rid of the comeback spot; AAA’s attempts to do hot tag psychology rarely seemed to be understood by the fans, and what’s happening here is not so foreign as to confuse anyone about what’s going on.

It’s still an odd and random change to the structure of CMLL matches, with no obvious reason. I have not seen anyone else even mention it (and I realize it’s fairly likely this is something that’s only sticking out to me and seems no big deal to anyone else), so there can’t be many explanations for something no one’s even noted. I’ve come up with two theories, though nothing bunch hunches for either.

The first is that CMLL’s business is still down. It’s not horrific, though the Tuesday shows have recently been so empty that I’ve started to wonder if the Wrestling Observer might be actually over inflating the attendance for once. CMLL still believes this is a situation mostly out of their control, but surely wants to do something so they don’t feel totally without control. When you live in a smaller apartment than you’d like, sometimes you rearrange the furniture. Maybe moving the TV from one room to another doesn’t give you what you actually want, a bigger apartment, but it feels better for a while.

The second theory is because of another bit of furniture rearranging we know of. If Panico has been moved out of the lead programming position – his presence at the Warrior/Escorpion contract signing makes it at least a bit questionable, but that’s what we’ve heard – then it’s a new person leading the group, and every person has their own minor quirks about the product. If I was in charge, I’d have everyone wearing in captain armbands within three months. It may not make a whole lot of difference to the bottom line, but it’d fit my vision of what the product should be. Maybe the new guy in charge, or whoever has the conch shell at the moment, just decided their vision of the matches was a more serious product were the rules were enforced and four judges ripped Polvora on a weekly basis for his lackluster matches. I’ve heard of stranger things.

(1) – there was an odd DQ in the 04/20 women’s match which looked like “illegal hair pulling” – another thing that’s never been called! – but could’ve also been too long in the ring.

(2) – which is very odd, because if all the luchadors know, Miguel, Julio and Jesus are aware of it.

(3) – if it was, they would brought in the “going over the barricade is a DQ” rule from the UWA (4). Instead, every rudo’s new favorite game is trying to figure out a way to over sell something and go over it.

(4) – The UWA is the all time king of screwy finishes to get out of actual decisions. They were nearly dead, drawing 100 people in Arena Neza, and doing draw finishes in meaningless trios matches. The 1995 results are astounding in the same way the 1999 WCW results must be amazingly crazy if you weren’t emotionally invested in the promotion.

(5) – there’s a slightly enforcement change with tags too. They’ve been doing a lot of disallowed tag spots of late: the tecnico is an armbar, reaches for a tag, makes the tag, but the referee won’t let the new tecnico in and both he and the announcers are baffeled. The wrestlers now must have a hand on their corner to make a tag, and it can be strictly enforced.
That's interesting

I really think CMLL need to do nothing but lightning matches for TV because they only got a hour for all their shows except C3 (which is two hours). 2/3 falls concept has been rip apart. For non big matches, each fall is only 3-5 minutes long. In the big matches, the first two falls is done in like 6 minutes and the rest of the match is the last fall. Terrible formula
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Old 06-12-2012, 02:48 PM   #466 (permalink)
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Default Re: Lucha Libre Match/Show Discussion/Reviews

Finally got to watch the Rey Escorpion/Black Warrior Cabellera match. Some nice spots, I liked it and we'll see where these two go from here.

I also feel a change in formula is in order. Not even necessarily eliminating the 2/3 falls stipulation, but at least changing up the pace/timing for different effects.
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Old 06-15-2012, 03:27 PM   #467 (permalink)
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Default Re: Lucha Libre Match/Show Discussion/Reviews

Agreed as well, they could use the 2/3 Falls to their advantage in building drama to the match (moreso in their big matches) but CMLL has typically followed the same formula for a number of years now as far as match structure if I remember, with little added alterations every now and then.

Congrats to The Juice for ending the reign of Jack Evans, Evans had a fantastic reign (mostly for the second half) but it was time to take it off of him. Man Juvy doesn't age for shit.

EDIT:
By the way, thinking of checking out Rush/Yujiro for the CMLL LHW Strap, has anyone seen it and is it worth a look?
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Old 06-19-2012, 08:30 AM   #468 (permalink)
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Default Re: Lucha Libre Match/Show Discussion/Reviews

Rush/Yujiro was actually pretty good. A great showcase of Rush's range and he came out looking like a million bucks. Was a little sloppy at first but they steadily built a decent little piece of business with a variety of strike exchanges, high spots and mat work. I was pretty impressed by Rush and could see him becoming a huge star in the future if the stars align. Yujiro is a great hand and brought a lot of different stuff out of his opponent.
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Old 06-20-2012, 10:08 AM   #469 (permalink)
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Default Re: Lucha Libre Match/Show Discussion/Reviews

As I see, there are people, who know a lot about lucha libre. Sign up to Luchawiki.org. I'm there too.
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Old 06-20-2012, 10:38 PM   #470 (permalink)
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Default Re: Lucha Libre Match/Show Discussion/Reviews

New person wrestling as Mistico
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After a year and a half of waiting by people that actually care, EMLL officially created their new Mistico today with Dragon Lee officially unmasking and being anointed by Fray Tormenta as the new Mistico. This is a pretty controversial decision as Dragon Lee is a polarizing figure among the internet lucha fan community although not as much as his brother Rush. The story was that Fray Tormenta was in Dragon’s corner last Friday at Arena Mexico and was so impressed with his ability that he offered him the chance of a lifetime to become the new The announcement was preceded by the promotion bringing out the four En Busca de un Idolo semifinalists where Dragon Lee finished third behind Titan & Euforia who will battle it out on Friday at Arena Mexico to determine the winner. Whoever wins that match will get a grand prize of an all expenses paid trip to Cancun, a free one-year membership at a gym, a spot on the New Japan tour next January, movement up the cards, and a shot at the CMLL title in their weight class which is kinda funny because the guy they finished ahead of has already become a bigger star than them.
Source: Gerweck
http://www.gerweck.net/2012/06/20/th...a-new-mistico/
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