[leglock]

Originally Posted by seancarleton77

That bland first 15 minutes is often my favourite part. But seriously there is a difference between people resting in loose headlocks and a slow build that progresses as the match goes on until it reaches the boiling point and checks into a room at the 5 star hotel. As long as the match is never boring and makes me stand whether I'm there live or at home watching it, I say.

I think you missed my point. I have no issues with mat wrestling or chain wrestling.

[seancarleton77]

Originally Posted by leglock

I think you missed my point. I have no issues with mat wrestling or chain wrestling.

Nah. I got it. I just wanted to get that point across at some point and I said "Shit. There's my opportunity".

Your username reminds me... Why aren't more matches won due to leg and arm work? I just want to see a guy like Barrett work Cena's leg and Cena Hulks up makes his big comback and WHAM leg goes out, Barrett hits his shitty finish an 8 year old could kick out of and I'm a happy camper.

[WillTheBloody]

Originally Posted by seancarleton77

Why aren't more matches won due to leg and arm work? I just want to see a guy like Barrett work Cena's leg and Cena Hulks up makes his big comback and WHAM leg goes out, Barrett hits his shitty finish an 8 year old could kick out of and I'm a happy camper.

Did you seriously just ask why people don't work over John Cena's leg? Or arm? I like Cena just fine, but that guy couldn't sell water to a dying fish, let alone one of his own flailing appendages.

However, I agree with the overall premise. I like seeing body part targeting that leads to the finish, whether it's (I'm sticking with your name here) working Cena's leg to make the AA difficult to maintain or the arm to make the STF easier to outright break. In the 'E, they usually just work everything and don't ask guys to sell anything specific for fear of outing them as shiny giants who are shit workers. Hell, most indy workers aren't very good at selling limbs. Eddie Kingston is about the best leg-seller that jumps out at me. I'm sure there are more, but not many.

[jawbreaker]

At the same time, though, it's really hard to have a great match without a good finishing stretch. Danielson/Kingston from We Must Eat Michigan's Brain had probably the best first ~8 minutes of any match I've seen this year, yet the interference finish and Danielson's forgetting of the leg to get cheap pops for his submissions and create a more "epic" finishing stretch really hurt it and I couldn't give it above ****.

[Yeah1993]

Originally Posted by leglock

As long as you're consistent and you can back up why you enjoy something, it's all good. It's crazy to see how many **** - ***** matches people give out these days considering the state wrestling is in. There is so much more to a match than the finishing stretch. I never understood the whole "WHAT CRAZY ENDING! HOLY CRAP ALL THE KICKOUTS!!!! THE INTENSITY!!!!!!" that a lot of people use, yet forgetting the bland first 15 minutes of a match.

Yeah I've noticed that too. I'd probably have like 5 ****1/2+ matches in the past three or four years and I see some guys' top ten lists of 2010 where their no 10 is ****1/2.

Originally Posted by McQueen

Sounds like a Davey Richards match.

At the same time, though, it's really hard to have a great match without a good finishing stretch.

I don;t think it's *really* hard, take a Benoit/Finlay for example.

[antoniomare007]

Originally Posted by Yeah1993

I don;t think it's *really* hard, take a Benoit/Finlay for example.

and 70's-80's wrestling.

[Yeah1993]

I think some 80s wrestling can have a good finishing stretch like a Flair/Steamboat or an Inoki/Hansen match but yeah, mostly. They don't go as "over the top" as the finishing stretches of the past 12 or so years.

[leglock]

To me, a five star match or even a 4 1/2 match is not a great match. It's an epic/legendary match. The highest rating I would give Benoit vs. Finlay would probably be 4 stars. It was an above average, very well wrestled, and intense match up. When it comes to rating matches, I tend to think of the match out of a possible of 100 points. Makes it a lot easier.

Side note, I know Dave Meltzer has given a few matches over five stars. One of which, the 6/95 Misawa/Kobashi vs. Kawada/Taue match. If I'm remembering correctly he gave it 7 1/2 stars.

EDIT: You also can't judge a match from 72 and 89 the same way, much less one from the 00s.

[Yeah1993]

I think a ****1/2 is an epic one too, and I think Benoit/Finlay IS epic. A great match probably ends at a high **** or low ****1/4.

Not that I use them anymore, anyway.

[seancarleton77]

Cena and Barrett were kind of a bad examples, but I wanted other people besides us to read this. Necro can sell a leg to the point where you cringe for him.