[PulseGlazer]

Originally Posted by Taroostyles

Are you saying Joe controlled 3/4 of the match? I haven't seen it since I saw it live, but it seemed like Angle was in control for practically the entire match.

What makes the match good is the way the match was built, pretty much perfect.

The beginning was a little more slow, but I don't think the plan was ever to keep it that slow all the way thru.

It's definitely a love/hate type of match, but people who saw every bit of build definitely will appreciate it more I think.

It was exactly the match they were building it as, and told an absolutely perfect story IMO. It was light on action I guess, but I thought it was atleast ****1/4.

Re-watch it. Besides leg work, Joe won nearly every encounter or at least blocked and countered what Angle succeeded in.

The outside of match build? We’re rating the match. Love the build all you want. It’s the MOTYC thread, not the BOTYC thread. (no offense, that came off condescending, but there’s art to what goes on in the ring, which is what most of us are discussing).

It wasn’t the match they were building. The match they were building would have MMA pay off and last all the way through. They built on MMA and hatred, along with Joe’s desperation. The first was abandoned and the last two were notably lacking.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Q: Why it deserves anything above ****?
A: Cuz we're not trying to fucking analyze it and are just trying to enjoy it. We don't need to be "oh, Angle didn't sell the back, that was fucking stupid" to enjoy it. Apparently you do tho. So good for you. But quit trying to act like you're so much better than everyone who liked it more thann you. God, this is why you're such a fucking nerd when it comes to ratings and wrestling.

You're waiting for a reason? Maybe nobody cares enough to answer. This is just like what happened with Flair vs. HBK. We're gonna have 40+ pages of people arguing, flaming, and nothing good will come from it.

Yeah, fuck logic, feelings are all that matter! Oh… wait, we’re going through the pros and cons of what lead to the feelings. Since only some had the feelings, let’s use analysis to figure out what was lacking to others.

The lack of back selling was important, just like the lack of leg selling. Both don’t kill the match, I rated it very good, but they keep it from being great. Now, the leg work first. Joe sells it, it seems a lot more likely he’ll lose. The audience is invited to wonder “oh my god, with him limping around, how can he win when he can barely stand!?” This adds investment and reason to doubt the finish beyond “oh boy anklelock.” Prior knowledge is good, refreshing it with in ring action is far better. As for the back, Joe is making a huge comeback, killing Angle. Isn’t it easier to get into the fiery face’s destruction of the cowardly heel if the heel is actually taking a wild beating and making the face look like a great world beater?

This isn’t analysis for analysis’s sake, though that has it’s place as well. This is examining why the match was not as successful with entire (or a reasonably close approximation of) the crowd and audience at home. TNA really seemed to assume the build would make up for the story gaffes in the ring, but while they are interconnected, both must stand on their own. The build manages to; the match doesn’t to the same extend.

Now, insert what Mystery said about this being a rating thread based on analysis and we’re done.

In conclusion, suck my horribly long phallic symbol from an overrated game over a decade old.

[M.S.I.I.]

You actually sit there thinking all of this while watching the match?

Sounds like you watch it like a critic too much instead of as a wrestling fan.

You can have your opinion, and your critiques, but it sounds like your to the point when your over critiquing it.

[Taroostyles]

The reason I say the build has so much to do with it is because the way the match was executed fit the way it was built perfectly.

The match made absolutely perfect sense IMO, if they had gone out and had a bloody war like some people wanted, it would've totally voided all the stuff they did leading up to the match.

I agree on the questionable selling by Joe on the leg, but I don't think it's enough for me to really take alot away from the match.

As far as the MMA style being thrown out halfway through, I think it was just a transition in the match. Angle was in control of Joe in that part of the match and Joe needed to make it a wrestling match in order to come out on top.

If they were really having s "shoot" even if it was a worked "shoot", then it would be pretty unrealistic for Joe to go over on Angle in a real MMA style match.

[PulseGlazer]

Originally Posted by M.S.I.I.

You actually sit there thinking all of this while watching the match?

Sounds like you watch it like a critic too much instead of as a wrestling fan.

You can have your opinion, and your critiques, but it sounds like your to the point when your over critiquing it.

Actually I watch it, ask why, get lost in their story, get my feeling, then figure out the why's and what's of what worked and didn't work after the match. I only do the latter part if I'm intending to review it. I have a column coming on HBKFlair and JoeAngle coming Monday since they're easily the two biggest American matches this year.

And yes, well, I'm a critic, though I prefer analyst. I enjoy it. Many others enjoy reading the analysis. Many don't. To each their own.

[KeepItFresh]

Seriously, I rated the match **** and could careless about this so-called awesome build.

I would have rated it higher if it wasn't for the lacking of selling.

Stop with the build argument, please.

[M.S.I.I.]

Originally Posted by PulseGlazer

Actually I watch it, ask why, get lost in their story, get my feeling, then figure out the why's and what's of what worked and didn't work after the match. I only do the latter part if I'm intending to review it. I have a column coming on HBKFlair and JoeAngle coming Monday since they're easily the two biggest American matches this year.

And yes, well, I'm a critic, though I prefer analyst. I enjoy it. Many others enjoy reading the analysis. Many don't. To each their own.

Iight Mr. Big Shot.

[Taroostyles]

Originally Posted by KeepItFresh

Seriously, I rated the match **** and could careless about this so-called awesome build.

I would have rated it higher if it wasn't for the lacking of selling.

Stop with the build argument, please.

Well sorry, but it's a totally valid defense TBH.

Meltzer himself(who isn't fond of TNA in general) said something like "As far as building an epic match, this match was the best in the US in many years." Something along those lines.

It's not the build itself, it's the execution of the match in correlation with how the match was booked/built. It was 100% the exact match it should have been.

I agree with the people about Joe selling the leg, hell I noticed it live but really didn't care since I was having such a great time.

I was including the bad selling in giving it ****1/4, I might even go higher even with it.

[-Blaskohiro Tenryu-]

Aaron Glazer is pimpin' in high places...

[-Mystery-]

How can you acknowledge bad selling and still give it ****1/4? The match was based around MMA thus it needs to seem 'real'. Hell, every match has to suspend disbelief and make the fans believe what they are watching is 'real'. However, back to my original point, Joe selling hurts the match greatly because TNA was attempting to make the match seem as 'real' as possible. If you're going to have a MMA based match, no-selling is a big no. It just can't happen because then it's no longer a MMA based match, it's just a regular old wrestling match.

[Taroostyles]

Originally Posted by -Mystery-

How can you acknowledge bad selling and still give it ****1/4? The match was based around MMA thus it needs to seem 'real'. Hell, every match has to suspend disbelief and make the fans believe what they are watching is 'real'. However, back to my original point, Joe selling hurts the match greatly because TNA was attempting to make the match seem as 'real' as possible. If you're going to have a MMA based match, no-selling is a big no. It just can't happen because then it's no longer a MMA based match, it's just a regular old wrestling match.

There are so many matches that have bad selling that still get high ratings from people, too many to even list.

Hell, HBK/Flair had pretty bad selling and I see tons of people giving it *****.

Plus, I never actually said the selling was "bad". I just agree that it wasn't as good as it should have been.(Need to watch again to fully determine that, but I could tell it wasn't what it could've been)