[Chiller88]

A few matches I watched today and yesterday...

MCMG/Briscoes - ROH Return Engagement - ****1/2
I liked this match better than their first one, but I think I need to give that one another watch.

Nigel/Black - ROH Take No Prisoners - ****3/4
I think Black kicked out of one too many things, but it still really had me rooting for him even though I knew he lost the match. This is my MOTY, but I still have a lot of catching up to do as far as indy matches go.

Danielson/Hero - wXw 16 Carat Gold - ****1/2
Awesome match and I loved the finish.

What other '08 indy matches do I need to watch? Tbh, these are the only indy matches I've seen this year.

[- Styles -]

Saw most of Return Engagement today. (Skipped the first disc) and got a couple new MOTYC.

MCMG vs Briscoes - ****1/2
VERY different from last years match which I still prefer to this one but just barely. Such great tag work by both teams and even though the it's like 24 minutes long the time really does fly by. If you like tag team wrestling this is a must see. Really fun enjoyable match


Kota Ibushi vs. El Generico - ****
Started off a little slow with a lots of Headlocks and mat wrestling but once it got into second gear it was great. Ibushi just pulls off such incredible moves and the crowd were completely marking for each one.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by PulseGlazer

Okay- Danielson 4* + matches this year:

Danielson vs. Nigel - **** 1/2 6ya
Danielson vs. Ki **** - ASW VI Night 1
Danielson vs. CIMA **** - ASW VI Night 2
Danielson vs. Aries - TNP - ****
Danielson vs. Tyler Breakout - **** 1/4
Danielson vs. Tyler - Soutner Nav **** 1/4
Danielson vs. Marufuji - **** 1/4- **** 1/2
Danielson and Aries vs. Black and Jacobs - **** 1/2
Danielson vs. Quack WxW- ****
Danielson vs. Maru WxW - ****
Danielson vs. Bad Bones - **** 1/2
Danielson vs. Hero **** 1/2
Danielson and Eddie Edwards vs. KENTA and Ibushi ****

Supposedly- Danielson vs. Claudio, too.

And, for fun, note that Danielson had, what, FOUR matches by this time last year. Dude is the best. Get over it.

Add Danielson vs. Claudio from Vendetta II . And if you're counting tags or tag variants, might I recommend the Ultimate Endurance from Without Remorse?

We might as well throw in Tyler vs. Danielson at the next PPV and Team Work vs. MCMG too since they are going to be. (And the eventual ROH Title vs. ROH Career: Nigel(c) vs. Danielson aka his last match in ROH)

...But honestly, we ALL know who the WOTY is...CM Punk (Sorry, still on a high from last Monday )

Edit: Anyone who has Return Engagement and skips to MCMG vs. Briscoes, make sure to watch the promo by MCMG that starts the show. It's greatness .

Edit 2: Glazer, have you seen Southern Navigation yet?

Edit 3: So many smilies!

Edit 4: I think you meant Ishimori, not Ibushi

[McQueen]

Glazer told me he thought Danielson/Black II from Southern Nav was in the **** 1/2 range the other day on MSN.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by McQueen

Glazer told me he thought Danielson/Black II from Southern Nav was in the **** 1/2 range the other day on MSN.

WHAT . I need that match NOW!

[McQueen]

Yeah, I need to watch pretty much all of my '08 ROH before I get to that show, but I have it.

[WillTheBloody]

ROH: Return Engagement
MCMG vs The Briscoes - ****

Buh. FAR inferior to their first encounter. This gets 4* on ingenuity alone, but has nothing in the way of story, work overs, selling, psychology, etc. I believe this is what a certain Mr. Lynn was talking about. Not directly, of course, but this style of wrestling is what irks him, and me for that matter.

It reminds me of the shitfest that is the movie "Wanted", which is basically a film where the protagonist proclaims, "You are unimportant without a gun in your hand! Everything else is totally lame!" Translation: it's only worth living life if people think you're cool. While it may be "uncool" to be a desk jockey, construction worker, coal miner, fast food employee, janitor, etc. its FAR more important in the grand scheme of things than, say, a fucking bullet-curving assassin.

Same goes for this match. It tells us, "All you need is spots, danger, FIGHTING SPIRIT, high-risk, MOOOORE FIGHTING SPIRIT, some no-selling and KICKASS moves, and you got yourself a match!" Doesn't work that way. There was no rhythm or reason to what they were doing. In the end, without purpose, emotion, or logic, I could only grade it for ingenuity....which, since I gave it 4 fucking ninja stars based on creative kickassery alone, should give you a clue as to how you will enjoy this, if at all.

IMO.

[PulseGlazer]

Originally Posted by WillTheBloody

ROH: Return Engagement
MCMG vs The Briscoes - ****

Buh. FAR inferior to their first encounter. This gets 4* on ingenuity alone, but has nothing in the way of story, work overs, selling, psychology, etc. I believe this is what a certain Mr. Lynn was talking about. Not directly, of course, but this style of wrestling is what irks him, and me for that matter.

It reminds me of the shitfest that is the movie "Wanted", which is basically a film where the protagonist proclaims, "You are unimportant without a gun in your hand! Everything else is totally lame!" Translation: it's only worth living life if people think you're cool. While it may be "uncool" to be a desk jockey, construction worker, coal miner, fast food employee, janitor, etc. its FAR more important in the grand scheme of things than, say, a fucking bullet-curving assassin.

Same goes for this match. It tells us, "All you need is spots, danger, FIGHTING SPIRIT, high-risk, MOOOORE FIGHTING SPIRIT, some no-selling and KICKASS moves, and you got yourself a match!" Doesn't work that way. There was no rhythm or reason to what they were doing. In the end, without purpose, emotion, or logic, I could only grade it for ingenuity....which, since I gave it 4 fucking ninja stars based on creative kickassery alone, should give you a clue as to how you will enjoy this, if at all.

IMO.

Sounds more like you're reviewing the first match than the second here. At least go read my review (2 pages back) for an overview of the story. There was a workover of Sabin that maintained imporance all match. There was a ton of learning from previous spots, such as the Air Raid Crash and Moonsault, a distinct double team advantage for MCMG who broke out new stuff because the Briscoes were superior last year, and a workover on Sabin that maintained importance for the rest of the match.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Add Danielson vs. Claudio from Vendetta II . And if you're counting tags or tag variants, might I recommend the Ultimate Endurance from Without Remorse?

We might as well throw in Tyler vs. Danielson at the next PPV and Team Work vs. MCMG too since they are going to be. (And the eventual ROH Title vs. ROH Career: Nigel(c) vs. Danielson aka his last match in ROH)

...But honestly, we ALL know who the WOTY is...CM Punk (Sorry, still on a high from last Monday )

Edit: Anyone who has Return Engagement and skips to MCMG vs. Briscoes, make sure to watch the promo by MCMG that starts the show. It's greatness .

Edit 2: Glazer, have you seen Southern Navigation yet?

Edit 3: So many smilies!

Edit 4: I think you meant Ishimori, not Ibushi

I think Ult Endurance is *** 3/4. I had Danielson vs. Claudio in there. Team Work vs. AOTF belongs there and from what I hear Team Work vs. NRC might as well.

I saw some of Southern Nav- Danielson vs. Tyler 2 is **** 1/4 - **** 1/2, definately better than their first. It really plays up the similarities, I adore the subplot that comes through hugely in the finish, and really, they bring the competitive fire.

I did mean Ishimori, not Ibushi.

[WillTheBloody]

Originally Posted by PulseGlazer

Sounds more like you're reviewing the first match than the second here. At least go read my review (2 pages back) for an overview of the story. There was a workover of Sabin that maintained imporance all match. There was a ton of learning from previous spots, such as the Air Raid Crash and Moonsault, a distinct double team advantage for MCMG who broke out new stuff because the Briscoes were superior last year, and a workover on Sabin that maintained importance for the rest of the match.

First off, there is no right answer here, no matter how badly you want to believe you have it. People do in fact percieve things differently. You apply your own personal opinion to create YOUR story, not THE story. Three examples:

- They never said "Sabin dodged the SSP b/c he remembered last match" they said "Mark hit it in match 1, missed in match 2". You decided Sabin was brilliant and built your logic accordingly.

- Shelley "suckering" Mark in. Again, this was never made clear and is your opinion.

- MCMG got another double submission on the Briscoes in nearly the same manner as last time. How is this "learning"? You didn't mention it in your review because you didn't take that away from the match, it wasn't important to the story YOU built.

Look, I know I'm ragging on you, and in truth, your stuff is always a good read. But I don't read it to be told the match story, I read it to see what you thought the story was. I read what you write simply to get a different take, your take. But don't sell it to me like it's fact. That's what BonesBarkley does, and no ones takes that guy seriously. No one intelligent anyway.

Again, I'm sorry if you feel this was unwarranted, but it was something that bothered me. In truth, this whole argument is in someway Mark Millar's fault.

[PulseGlazer]

Originally Posted by WillTheBloody

First off, there is no right answer here, no matter how badly you want to believe you have it. People do in fact percieve things differently. You apply your own personal opinion to create YOUR story, not THE story. Three examples:

- They never said "Sabin dodged the SSP b/c he remembered last match" they said "Mark hit it in match 1, missed in match 2". You decided Sabin was brilliant and built your logic accordingly.

- Shelley "suckering" Mark in. Again, this was never made clear and is your opinion.

- MCMG got another double submission on the Briscoes in nearly the same manner as last time. How is this "learning"? You didn't mention it in your review because you didn't take that away from the match, it wasn't important to the story YOU built.

Look, I know I'm ragging on you, and in truth, your stuff is always a good read. But I don't read it to be told the match story, I read it to see what you thought the story was. I read what you write simply to get a different take, your take. But don't sell it to me like it's fact. That's what BonesBarkley does, and no ones takes that guy seriously. No one intelligent anyway.

Again, I'm sorry if you feel this was unwarranted, but it was something that bothered me. In truth, this whole argument is in someway Mark Millar's fault.

Fuck Mark Millar. The double submission was a different one. MCMG built everything around different double teams. Most teams, Guns included have a set of double teams they usually do. They departed from that totally here and counterred... all but the Springboard Doomsday of the Briscoes standard moves. The Briscoes busted out a new combo or two eventually also, and those were the only things that worked. Are you suggesting this is mere coincidence? I don't see how all of that (I mean, I could go move by move if you really, really want, but I tend not to in my reviews) can just be unintentional happennstance. These guys knew the complaints first time and addressed them here.

They don't say Shelley suckerred in Mark, but he suckers in Mark with trick kicks as he hits the ropes and sweeps throughout the match. This is all just luck with no intent? I really don't see that.

Lastly, agreed, Fuck Millar.