[sirdilznik]

Originally Posted by PulseGlazer

You really missed the point. It's because Angle spends the match working the back to finish with a leg move.

HBK is both far more likely to finish with something else, like a roll up or whatever, and more likely to work moves that would soften someone up for a knockout blow like Sweet Chin Music.

How do you "soften someone up" for Sweet Chin Music? It's a straight up side kick. A knockout blow. Whether you suplex a guy 12 times, work his leg for 10 minutes, or do nothing at all, it will have no bearing on how effective getting kicked in the face will be. The superkick is a strong enough blow that it will KTFO a gut without having to deliver previous blows. Want proof? Guys get laid out just as long getting superkicked by HBK whether it's at the beginning of a match, after 10 minutes, or not in a match at all, but during a promo or something. The only thing that has any bearing on the superkick is getting the guy groggy so when he gets up he doesn't see the kick coming, which makes it more likely to hit, but the move works just as well when HBK pulls it out of nowhere (like Randy with the RKO).

If anything Kurt does more to set up the Ankle Lock. He is wearing the opponent down as a whole so that when he does put the Ankle Lock on they are too tired or don't have the strength to reverse it or pull themselves to the ropes (thus the move failing the first two times but working the third time). I do agree that it would make it better if he worked a Spinning Toe Hold for a bit during the match, or stomped the leg a bit.

[PulseGlazer]

Originally Posted by sirdilznik

How do you "soften someone up" for Sweet Chin Music? It's a straight up side kick. A knockout blow. Whether you suplex a guy 12 times, work his leg for 10 minutes, or do nothing at all, it will have no bearing on how effective getting kicked in the face will be. The superkick is a strong enough blow that it will KTFO a gut without having to deliver previous blows. Want proof? Guys get laid out just as long getting superkicked by HBK whether it's at the beginning of a match, after 10 minutes, or not in a match at all, but during a promo or something. The only thing that has any bearing on the superkick is getting the guy groggy so when he gets up he doesn't see the kick coming, which makes it more likely to hit, but the move works just as well when HBK pulls it out of nowhere (like Randy with the RKO).

If anything Kurt does more to set up the Ankle Lock. He is wearing the opponent down as a whole so that when he does put the Ankle Lock on they are too tired or don't have the strength to reverse it or pull themselves to the ropes (thus the move failing the first two times but working the third time). I do agree that it would make it better if he worked a Spinning Toe Hold for a bit during the match, or stomped the leg a bit.

The knockout blow is important sure, but in wrestling terms at the least, there's a lot you can do to set up a knockout. Usually guys with big KO moves either try and work the head or do "loss of breathe moves" with the supposed logic that if you get caught while breathing hard you're more likely to black out.

[sirdilznik]

Originally Posted by PulseGlazer

The knockout blow is important sure, but in wrestling terms at the least, there's a lot you can do to set up a knockout. Usually guys with big KO moves either try and work the head or do "loss of breathe moves" with the supposed logic that if you get caught while breathing hard you're more likely to black out.

I get that, and I agree that repeated blows to the head, pile drivers, DDTs, etc... make it look good working the head. However HBK kills that theory whenever he Superkicks someone out of nowhere (like in an interview, contract signing, etc) and they lay there unconscious for an eternity. Kind of makes any "set up" seem worthless when he can KTFO anyone just like that. I guess I'm just over-analyzing (sorry).

I completely agree that it would be good for Angle to work the leg more often than he does or finish with something else (he never even wins with the Olympic Slam anymore). I even tried to satrt a "No More Ankle Locks clap, clap, clap clap clap" chant at the house show in Westbury. No one bought it though *sigh*

[McQueen]

Am I the only one who thought Angle/Nagata was at best average? I didn't get into it at all. ** 1/2 from me seriously.

I haven't seen anything MOTYC yet but I downloaded that supposedly wonderful NOAH 6 man last night. Really the only thing else this year i've watched besides Angle/Nagata was Kensuke/Tenryu/Suzuki/Takayama vs Kawada/Yoshie/Ohtani/Saito from K. Office but I certainly don't think its gonna be the best match this year, I just enjoyed it alot.

[AIW]

Originally Posted by sirdilznik

I completely agree that it would be good for Angle to work the leg more often than he does or finish with something else (he never even wins with the Olympic Slam anymore). I even tried to satrt a "No More Ankle Locks clap, clap, clap clap clap" chant at the house show in Westbury. No one bought it though *sigh*

Say what? Angle beat Booker with the Olympic Slam just last week on Impact. He's been winning with it in TNA for a good while.

Giving my little two cents in this. I can see where the logic comes from of Angle working on the leg more on opponents to build his submission finisher. But I honestly never believed such a thing was ever needed for Kurt's Ankle Lock. I mean when I looked at most of his career when he used it, I always thought the move was done more as a random hold that wasn't ever suppose to fit his moveset of what he was doing (like focusing on the Slam). It's the move that Angle can get you out of nowhere for the most part and he only exactly attacks the legs when having frustration like moment or taking a big man down in my view of it.

[T-C]

Originally Posted by McQueen

Am I the only one who thought Angle/Nagata was at best average? I didn't get into it at all. ** 1/2 from me seriously.

I'm with you. First Angle main event match that I've watched since the Joe ones, and it did nothing to make me want to watch him again.

[PulseGlazer]

Originally Posted by sirdilznik

I get that, and I agree that repeated blows to the head, pile drivers, DDTs, etc... make it look good working the head. However HBK kills that theory whenever he Superkicks someone out of nowhere (like in an interview, contract signing, etc) and they lay there unconscious for an eternity. Kind of makes any "set up" seem worthless when he can KTFO anyone just like that. I guess I'm just over-analyzing (sorry).

I completely agree that it would be good for Angle to work the leg more often than he does or finish with something else (he never even wins with the Olympic Slam anymore). I even tried to satrt a "No More Ankle Locks clap, clap, clap clap clap" chant at the house show in Westbury. No one bought it though *sigh*

That's most finishers and in character context more than match context. I tend to agree, but it's more of a booking problem.

The ankle lock would work much more effectively from a storyline perspective if it were either instant kill or set up by the goddamn Ankle lock 4 other times. It's the most overexposed finisher in North America.

[sirdilznik]

Originally Posted by AngleIsWrestling

Say what? Angle beat Booker with the Olympic Slam just last week on Impact. He's been winning with it in TNA for a good while.

/facepalm

My bad. I can't believe I forgot that, I mean it just happened. Doh!

I guess what I should have said is that he just doesn't seem to win the big matches with the Olympic Slam anymore. Years ago it was close to 50/50 on whether he would win by Ankle Lock or Olympic Slam. These days it seems more like 85/15 Lock/Slam. Maybe I'm just remembering wrong.

[tangent]One of the things I used to love about Benoit was his variety of finishers. He won with the Crossface, He won with the Headbutt, He won with the Sharpshooter (I think if you're Canadian you are automatically entitled to get like a half dozen Sharpshooter wins), He even (rarely) won with the Triple Germans. Same thing with Kobashi. He could win with the Lariat, enough Half-Nelson Suplexes, the Moonsault, the Brainbuster, and if he broke out the Burning Hammer it was all over for sure.[/tangent]

I guess I wish Kurt had another finisher. The Super Olympic Slam off the second rope is sweet but that's just a beefed up Olympic Slam. Too bad he's not Canadian. Then he could adopt the Sharpshooter. Maybe some kind of Backbreaker variation?

[TheUnholyDragon]

As relates to Angle, I think he's fine when he has an opponent who works well around his style. Nagata and Christian provided those imo.

The Ankle Lock has been built as an incredibly painful hold on its own, so I can see how it requires little build.

As relates to SCM...the effectiveness has actually been shown to vary depending on how well he hits it. I've seen guys start moving seconds later or staying down for minutes. Which makes perfect sense.

As relates to explaining ratings...I've been on about that for more than a year and it's never done anything. Good to see others reflecting my thoughts though.

[casper-21]

Add:

ROH Tag Title Match - Ultimate Endurance (ROH proving Ground)

New Hazard vs Typhoon 8 men tag match - 2/3 falls (Dragon Gate 22.01.08)