Dean Ambrose Pre-Debut Discussion Thread - Page 233 - Wrestling Forum : WWE, TNA, Debate League, Wrestling Videos, Women of Wrestling Forums
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Old 08-05-2012, 06:15 AM   #2321 (permalink)
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Default Re: Dean Ambrose Pre-Debut Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by -Skullbone- View Post
I agree, although it's something the company cannot resign itself to. Frankly, it's something we shouldn't resign ourselves to either. You can boo and cheer who you want, but the heel's primary objective is to get the crowd to hate him/her and help garner support for his/her opponent. Cheering the heel undermines the world of kayfabe in many cases so it's up to the quality, or 'despicability', of the heel's character to remind smarks of their fresh-eyed days as marks.
I think the PG era is a big restraint in terms of getting over as a real heel. I mean, you mention "despicability" like it's an easy thing to achieve in the current WWE environment. Of course to children it might be, but more importantly to the "Smarks" it's damn near impossible. Lets take this forum for example, the demographic on here must be in the 16-35 age range, with PG programming it's going to be extremely difficult for a heel to actual shock us and I mean literally shock us, not to the point where we begin to despise them anyway. The only way a wrestler is going to get legitimate heat as a heel (with the Smarks) is if they're bad, if they're so bad that people want to turn the television off every time they make an appearance, now that is going to garner heat, not the right heat though.
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Old 08-05-2012, 08:00 AM   #2322 (permalink)
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Default Re: Dean Ambrose Pre-Debut Discussion Thread

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I think the PG era is a big restraint in terms of getting over as a real heel. I mean, you mention "despicability" like it's an easy thing to achieve in the current WWE environment. Of course to children it might be, but more importantly to the "Smarks" it's damn near impossible. Lets take this forum for example, the demographic on here must be in the 16-35 age range, with PG programming it's going to be extremely difficult for a heel to actual shock us and I mean literally shock us, not to the point where we begin to despise them anyway. The only way a wrestler is going to get legitimate heat as a heel (with the Smarks) is if they're bad, if they're so bad that people want to turn the television off every time they make an appearance, now that is going to garner heat, not the right heat though.
All that depends on how much one is to rate the importance of the 'smark' demographic. Not saying they don't play a factor, but they are not the key market for good reason. I'll play along, regardless of all that.

We aren't all that different to the casuals aside from the fact we stick by the product. That means we're people as well, and as people we have our preferences and dislikes. If a character plays to our dislikes, granted it has to be convincingly played, then by all likelihood we grow disdain for them (and vice versa on all counts with face characters). During my occasional lurking about I've come across heaps of comments talking about how they wanted, say, Booker T to overcome that dastardly Cody Rhodes after what he was put through earlier that night, or how much of an irritating twit Daniel Bryan is. Some souls are harder to shake than others, yes, but the remnants of fresh-eyed 'markism' still lingers about these hallways.

Now, as smarks, we should be mature enough to recognise the talent of the performer when playing a character and separate them accordingly. That may take the magic out of it but judging from some complaints and poster attitudes that feeling has long gone. Yet they still persist with this place and persisting with this product. Smarks aren't the immovable force of anti-fandom many paint them to be. See them as movie goers; in this case, the 16-35 age bracket you suggest this forum's made up of. They want to be entertained and yes, even moved, but they need something that's more acquired to their taste or else they'll question it.

I'm not going to get into X-Pac heat as that's a smouldering mess of subjectivism that doesn't need further elaboration.

Interesting to note you used the word 'shock' to illustrate what needs to be done to move smark audiences. Taking that word literally (which is what I assumed you meant), the element of 'shock' is a crucial one in helping get a character over, although those sort of impactful transitions are best utilised in small doses when in competent hands. They are critical junctures that are intended to stand out and instantly remembered above all else in regards to characters/stories/programs. Even if professional wrestling is mostly a soapie, a key reason that stories/programs of such nature get panned in Western culture is because they're one track and used so frequently as twists that the whole notion is watered down into a weak fart.

I agree with you that this current era has made things pretty listless and run-of-the-mill. That isn't so much an inditement on the PG rating, however, but more the safety nets that the company have put out to preserve their delicate image in modern culture. That doesn't mean notions of raw hatred and passion from the stands can not still resonate occasionally. That Brock Lesnar-John Cena match was received so positively because it was something so unusual and surreal to us and many others. This loathable behemoth in Lesnar, having returned from UFC and making us question the validity of his latest comeback, viciously takes apart the main face of the company in John Cena and reduces him to a quaking mess for the most part. If things are written well enough, such as what hopefully will become of Ambrose and looks to be doing so with Sandow, then there's more reason for us to become invested enough to cheer or boo them loudly enough that we may as well be in the football grandstands.

And if you want to get down to it, there's nothing really "important" about appeasing the IWC. Truthfully, we mostly consist of a bunch of fickle, know-it-all, pencil neck marks that lack self-awareness. Most of us come onto sites like these to protest against the 'quality' of WWE products which, as most know, has always consisted of Jerry Springer-esque entertainment, yet will still continue to tune in because of habit or 'loyalty' (both of which are such pathetic, jellyfish excuses in my book). It's funny when we debate taste when, in actuality, there is very little of that in "sports entertainment."
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Old 08-05-2012, 09:46 AM   #2323 (permalink)
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Default Re: Dean Ambrose Pre-Debut Discussion Thread

Brilliant post.
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Old 08-05-2012, 04:12 PM   #2324 (permalink)
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Default Re: Dean Ambrose Pre-Debut Discussion Thread

People are never satisified and they always want more, it's a human trait that just applies to wrestling in this case. The last heel that made me legitimately hate them was the greatest heel of all time in HHH. That was because I was a lot younger but growing up, I realized how special of a character he was able to play, and since then no one has come close. If they want people to truly boo and get a heel over, they need either a face that the people want to see win, or a heel that the people want to see get their ass kicked. Right now, we have neither. We have John Cena, who is hated by many, we have CM Punk, who knows what he is now, and then we fall off even more.

Ambrose is special, but I just don't think that the masses will be able to allow him to shine the way he deserves, just because if he does an amazing job at being a heel, he will get cheered. Damien Sandow is someone I think we should all keep our eyes on though, he's fuckin' amazing.
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Old 08-05-2012, 06:16 PM   #2325 (permalink)
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Default Re: Dean Ambrose Pre-Debut Discussion Thread

Lol this whole Ambrose situation reminds of when Brodus' debut was held off for months and everyone around here was anticipating it, then when he finally debuted it was a big smack in the face to everyone who was anticipating it. Not saying thats gonna happen to Ambrose he's far too talented for that, but i could just imagine the shit storm that would come down around here if he came out with an over the top ridiculous gimmick like Brodus.
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Old 08-05-2012, 06:24 PM   #2326 (permalink)
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Default Re: Dean Ambrose Pre-Debut Discussion Thread

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For those wondering about why he hasn't debuted yet, I can only assume it's because WWE is trying to improve his promo skills before allowing him to debut on Superstars or NXT.
Right, the best mic worker on the FCW/NXT roster is being held back to work on his promos.
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Old 08-05-2012, 07:43 PM   #2327 (permalink)
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Default Re: Dean Ambrose Pre-Debut Discussion Thread

I don't know, I've watched his promos and he's good but not, in my opinion, good enough to "Save the WWE" or something like that. Wade Barrett and Bray Wyatt are still better in my opinion.
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Old 08-05-2012, 07:56 PM   #2328 (permalink)
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Default Re: Dean Ambrose Pre-Debut Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by -Skullbone- View Post
All that depends on how much one is to rate the importance of the 'smark' demographic. Not saying they don't play a factor, but they are not the key market for good reason. I'll play along, regardless of all that.

We aren't all that different to the casuals aside from the fact we stick by the product. That means we're people as well, and as people we have our preferences and dislikes. If a character plays to our dislikes, granted it has to be convincingly played, then by all likelihood we grow disdain for them (and vice versa on all counts with face characters). During my occasional lurking about I've come across heaps of comments talking about how they wanted, say, Booker T to overcome that dastardly Cody Rhodes after what he was put through earlier that night, or how much of an irritating twit Daniel Bryan is. Some souls are harder to shake than others, yes, but the remnants of fresh-eyed 'markism' still lingers about these hallways.

Now, as smarks, we should be mature enough to recognise the talent of the performer when playing a character and separate them accordingly. That may take the magic out of it but judging from some complaints and poster attitudes that feeling has long gone. Yet they still persist with this place and persisting with this product. Smarks aren't the immovable force of anti-fandom many paint them to be. See them as movie goers; in this case, the 16-35 age bracket you suggest this forum's made up of. They want to be entertained and yes, even moved, but they need something that's more acquired to their taste or else they'll question it.

I'm not going to get into X-Pac heat as that's a smouldering mess of subjectivism that doesn't need further elaboration.

Interesting to note you used the word 'shock' to illustrate what needs to be done to move smark audiences. Taking that word literally (which is what I assumed you meant), the element of 'shock' is a crucial one in helping get a character over, although those sort of impactful transitions are best utilised in small doses when in competent hands. They are critical junctures that are intended to stand out and instantly remembered above all else in regards to characters/stories/programs. Even if professional wrestling is mostly a soapie, a key reason that stories/programs of such nature get panned in Western culture is because they're one track and used so frequently as twists that the whole notion is watered down into a weak fart.

I agree with you that this current era has made things pretty listless and run-of-the-mill. That isn't so much an inditement on the PG rating, however, but more the safety nets that the company have put out to preserve their delicate image in modern culture. That doesn't mean notions of raw hatred and passion from the stands can not still resonate occasionally. That Brock Lesnar-John Cena match was received so positively because it was something so unusual and surreal to us and many others. This loathable behemoth in Lesnar, having returned from UFC and making us question the validity of his latest comeback, viciously takes apart the main face of the company in John Cena and reduces him to a quaking mess for the most part. If things are written well enough, such as what hopefully will become of Ambrose and looks to be doing so with Sandow, then there's more reason for us to become invested enough to cheer or boo them loudly enough that we may as well be in the football grandstands.

And if you want to get down to it, there's nothing really "important" about appeasing the IWC. Truthfully, we mostly consist of a bunch of fickle, know-it-all, pencil neck marks that lack self-awareness. Most of us come onto sites like these to protest against the 'quality' of WWE products which, as most know, has always consisted of Jerry Springer-esque entertainment, yet will still continue to tune in because of habit or 'loyalty' (both of which are such pathetic, jellyfish excuses in my book). It's funny when we debate taste when, in actuality, there is very little of that in "sports entertainment."
Think I see what you're saying in that first part. I admire DB's talents, but I am a huge fan of AJ, he was getting some good heat from me because of the way he was treating her. You could tell that even thou DB was getting the smarks on his side, he was doing his job as a "heel" making sure that he got heat.
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Old 08-05-2012, 11:37 PM   #2329 (permalink)
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Default Re: Dean Ambrose Pre-Debut Discussion Thread

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I don't know, I've watched his promos and he's good but not, in my opinion, good enough to "Save the WWE" or something like that. Wade Barrett and Bray Wyatt are still better in my opinion.
Well, nobody is gonna "save the WWE" because Vince is too stuck in his family friendly approach, which is pretty damn dumb when their corporate website even says 74% of their audience are adults.

Bray Wyatt is not as good as Ambrose. He's absolutely #2 in FCW, but he's not as good as Dean. Sandow challenged him when he was in FCW, and imo beats him on mic skills, not by a landslide, but I'd favor him. Not as good as Barrett, definately, but he'll certainly accomplish more because he doesn't have certain factors holding him down *cough*English*cough*.
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Old 08-06-2012, 12:19 AM   #2330 (permalink)
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Default Re: Dean Ambrose Pre-Debut Discussion Thread

You know what I like about Ambrose? He has this same "You're not going to hold me down with this BS booking" quality that Punk has. Remember how even when WWE tried to do nearly everything in their power to bury Punk, he'd always come up with at least one thing that made you stop and say, "Whoa, that was pretty awesome?" Ambrose looks to have that same ability. So many "superstars" nowadays will only be as good as they're booked. Even the young guys, like Rollins, Ohno, Cesaro, Wyatt, etc. will only be as good as their booking. Hell, even stars like HHH and Cena have this air of, "If Vince didn't push us to the point of nausea, we'd still be midcarders." But Ambrose has a different vibe about him, a WCW/ECW Steve Austin vibe. It's just something about Ambrose that says, "Screw your stupid booking, if you give me so much as an inch, I'll take a goddamn mile. I dare you mofos to try and bury me."

That's the exact same attitude that made CM Punk a star.
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