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post #2291 of 3754 (permalink) Old 08-03-2012, 07:55 PM
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Re: Dean Ambrose Pre-Debut Discussion Thread

I'm making a bold and sad prediction that for some reason he will NEVER debut on TV. I hope to god I'm proved wrong and would love it to happen tomorrow if I could but I have this horrible gut feeling he'll join the ranks of Sean O'Haire's Devil's Advocate character and others who looked the shit but for some reason they never got the necessary exposure and we're left to ponder 'what if?'

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post #2292 of 3754 (permalink) Old 08-03-2012, 10:43 PM
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Re: Is he the much needed change in WWE?

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First off, I disagree about saying Ambrose is not better than Sandow. I don't know if your saying Sandow is better than Ambrose or if your just saying that Ambrose is no better than Sandow, but I'll explain either way. I like Sandow. Like Ambrose, I think he kind of harpens back to an old school type of wrestler. Great talker. Fine wrestler from what I've seen. Probably won't put on any five star classics, but neither will Ambrose probably. But in my opinion, there is just something missing w/ Sandow. When he's on TV, I'm not thinking "Sandow's on TV, no way I'm turning the channel." Or when I watched him on Youtube in FCW, I wasn't thinking "no way I can skip Sandow." But w/ Ambrose, whenever I've seen him, I can't turn him off. He gets my attention and keeps me guessing. Ambrose has the "IT" factor. In my opinion and you can blast me if you want, Sandow does not.
I won't blast you, but I'll say you're wrong. They both have "it", and as far as who's better, I am saying Sandow's better, but that's not a knock on Ambrose whatsoever, Sandow just uses the style that I like more than Ambrose, it's just my opinion and if somebody believes Ambrose is better, far be it from me to tell them they're wrong, because he's not some ludicrous, unjustly hyped farce like Ziggler or Rhodes, he's a very, very talented guy. But the reason you think Ambrose has "it" and Sandow doesn't is just because Ambrose's character is so far out on the edge, while Sandow is more refined and more "ordinary" and doesn't essentially say with the way he plays himself, "I WANT ATTENTION I'M CRAZY GIVE ME ATTENTION" the way that Ambrose does. And I don't think that's a bad thing at all, but subtlety is obviously a foreign concept to the character, and for a crazy gimmick, it should be foreign. It's just a stylistic choice for why I think Sandow's better, and I'm not saying they should switch and I'd like Ambrose more, because Ambrose could never play Sandow's character, and Sandow could never play Ambrose's, they're just diametrically opposed characters. The only similarity is that they're both supremely talented, but I'm not as high on the whacked out, nuts style of character that Ambrose plays, as I am of the more "normal" character of Sandow, especially when it's played so damn well.



If Sandow doesn't have it, read the comments pages on this video and tell me why everybody is praising him to ludicrous levels, calling for title runs, saying how epic he is, that he's the best thing in the company, etc. If he doesn't get people's attention, they wouldn't fucking say these things, would they?

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post #2293 of 3754 (permalink) Old 08-04-2012, 12:09 AM
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Re: Is he the much needed change in WWE?

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I won't blast you, but I'll say you're wrong. They both have "it", and as far as who's better, I am saying Sandow's better, but that's not a knock on Ambrose whatsoever, Sandow just uses the style that I like more than Ambrose, it's just my opinion and if somebody believes Ambrose is better, far be it from me to tell them they're wrong, because he's not some ludicrous, unjustly hyped farce like Ziggler or Rhodes, he's a very, very talented guy. But the reason you think Ambrose has "it" and Sandow doesn't is just because Ambrose's character is so far out on the edge, while Sandow is more refined and more "ordinary" and doesn't essentially say with the way he plays himself, "I WANT ATTENTION I'M CRAZY GIVE ME ATTENTION" the way that Ambrose does. And I don't think that's a bad thing at all, but subtlety is obviously a foreign concept to the character, and for a crazy gimmick, it should be foreign. It's just a stylistic choice for why I think Sandow's better, and I'm not saying they should switch and I'd like Ambrose more, because Ambrose could never play Sandow's character, and Sandow could never play Ambrose's, they're just diametrically opposed characters. The only similarity is that they're both supremely talented, but I'm not as high on the whacked out, nuts style of character that Ambrose plays, as I am of the more "normal" character of Sandow, especially when it's played so damn well.



If Sandow doesn't have it, read the comments pages on this video and tell me why everybody is praising him to ludicrous levels, calling for title runs, saying how epic he is, that he's the best thing in the company, etc. If he doesn't get people's attention, they wouldn't fucking say these things, would they?
Here is my definition of "IT Factor. The "IT" Factor is that intangible quality that whenever someone w/ the "IT" factor is on TV, people don't dare change the channel. Everyone's "IT" Factor is different. It's a quality to themselves that no one can really pinpoint exactly what it is.

When I watch Ambrose, he has that effect over me. W/ Sandow, it's just not all there. I enjoy his work. I think he's great. But I say it again, in my opinion he is just missing that certain something. I can see Sandow becoming a major heel in WWE. Probably in line for a mid card title soon (within the next year or so) and maybe one day a World Title holder.

But w/ Ambrose, I feel he can accomplish all that and more. In my opinion, He could become the top heel in the company. I even believe that he could reach that level of popularity like Orton did in 2010 and Punk did in 2011 where the people cheer him even though he is a bad guy.

I agree w/ most of those people from Youtube. Sandow's great and has all the right skills to be a major player in WWE. I just think Ambrose can and will go above and beyond Sandow. I just feel he is a better overall talent in terms of in ring skills, mic skills, psychology, etc.

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post #2294 of 3754 (permalink) Old 08-04-2012, 01:01 AM
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Re: Dean Ambrose Pre-Debut Discussion Thread

Well, you can have your own definition, but I'm not making sense of it. Saying that somebody is "great and has all the right skills to be a major player in WWE" IS saying they have "it". That's what you're doing, that's what "it" means. If somebody can't be a big star, they don't have "it". An example of somebody who doesn't have "it" is Tensai. Another example is Jack Swagger. They push them, they flop like fuck, they de-push them. Simple.

Saying how great Sandow is and how he can be a major heel is saying he has "it", because if he doesn't have "it", then "it" means nothing, because as you just said, he can be a major heel. Whatever you think is missing with him is clearly NOT important, because if it was important, then it would stop him from becoming a major heel and would match up perfectly with you saying he doesn't have "it". Do you see where I'm going with this?

I agree with you, Ambrose could be the top heel in the company, but so could Sandow. He's ridiculously good on the mic, his gimmick is a heat catcher, and really, before Punk turned, the biggest heel in the company was Big Show, so it's not like being the top babyface. In order to be the top babyface, you've got to really, really have insane amounts of "it". And whatever "it" actually is, Sandow and Ambrose's ceiling is not that high. They can both be the top heel in the company, but no higher.

Ambrose might accomplish more, I'll agree with you on that, for a couple reasons. Firstly, he's younger, that helps. Secondly, there's more potential as a babyface for Ambrose than for Sandow. Not to say that Sandow couldn't be a babyface, but this gimmick clearly isn't adaptable into a face, he'd have to go to something else before I would say "yeah, I can see him playing babyface". Even though Ambrose is crazy, he has a character portrayal method that would lead me to believe that he can play either side as the same character. Heel is definately easier, but there's some way to turn his personality into a face. I don't know what without thinking about it too in depth, but someway, somehow, there is a way for a crazy man to be a babyface. He'd be, I don't know how to describe it, sort of like the babyface Rated R Superstar Edge, sort of like a rock star/badass combo thing like he had. I don't know, I'm not gonna think about it that in depth. Right now I can't imagine how Sandow would play a babyface until I see him in another gimmick or at least a tweaked version, so that's #2. #3 is because the edgy persona is "in" at the moment. People love Punk's stuff to death, and Punk is both very different but also very similar to Ambrose as a character, and these qualities can bring him very far.

If any of the things I listed are what you meant when you said "it", feel free to tell me. I still think it's a misuse of the term, in any event, because not having "it" to me is synonymous with not being able to be a major player.

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post #2295 of 3754 (permalink) Old 08-04-2012, 01:30 AM
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Re: Dean Ambrose Pre-Debut Discussion Thread

I look forward to seeing Sandow in a legitimate program. He's got a pretty flexible character foundation that can work against most faces and play to casual audience's disdain. Shame that Ryder rivalry will likely never transpire, although I'd pin that more on management refusing to utilize the guy for anything other than fodder.

One thing I hope he's given is more flesh to his character's hatable qualities. They've obviously been going down that path with his vicious streak, although there are times where I fear that gets overlooked when people fawn over his mildly humorous 'schtick' (yes I used that work specifically). If I had things my way I'd be shedding light on his outbursts as reflecting his intolerance toward those he sees as undermining his 'crusade.' I'd hate for him show 'psychotic' traits just for the sake of it. Make him a vain personality through and through with the bolded being a key word, and maybe his actions can snowball into something increasingly reprehensible.

All this talk about building heel characteristics goes for Ambrose as well, pertaining to the subject at hand. I do think people will view him far more revoltingly than Sandow's somewhat ambiguous grounding as an intellectual, however. Ambrose (as a character) possesses very few likeable qualities, whereas some will support Sandow as an intellectual savour based on how much they personally value that quality.
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post #2296 of 3754 (permalink) Old 08-04-2012, 07:03 AM
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Re: Dean Ambrose Pre-Debut Discussion Thread

These days I'm watching a lot of Dean Ambrose's stuff from Indys, when he was Jon Moxley. Such an awesome pro wrestler, total package. Hopefully WWE is willing to fully invest in him.
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post #2297 of 3754 (permalink) Old 08-04-2012, 08:49 AM
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Re: Dean Ambrose Pre-Debut Discussion Thread

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Well, you can have your own definition, but I'm not making sense of it. Saying that somebody is "great and has all the right skills to be a major player in WWE" IS saying they have "it". That's what you're doing, that's what "it" means. If somebody can't be a big star, they don't have "it". An example of somebody who doesn't have "it" is Tensai. Another example is Jack Swagger. They push them, they flop like fuck, they de-push them. Simple.

Saying how great Sandow is and how he can be a major heel is saying he has "it", because if he doesn't have "it", then "it" means nothing, because as you just said, he can be a major heel. Whatever you think is missing with him is clearly NOT important, because if it was important, then it would stop him from becoming a major heel and would match up perfectly with you saying he doesn't have "it". Do you see where I'm going with this?

I agree with you, Ambrose could be the top heel in the company, but so could Sandow. He's ridiculously good on the mic, his gimmick is a heat catcher, and really, before Punk turned, the biggest heel in the company was Big Show, so it's not like being the top babyface. In order to be the top babyface, you've got to really, really have insane amounts of "it". And whatever "it" actually is, Sandow and Ambrose's ceiling is not that high. They can both be the top heel in the company, but no higher.

Ambrose might accomplish more, I'll agree with you on that, for a couple reasons. Firstly, he's younger, that helps. Secondly, there's more potential as a babyface for Ambrose than for Sandow. Not to say that Sandow couldn't be a babyface, but this gimmick clearly isn't adaptable into a face, he'd have to go to something else before I would say "yeah, I can see him playing babyface". Even though Ambrose is crazy, he has a character portrayal method that would lead me to believe that he can play either side as the same character. Heel is definately easier, but there's some way to turn his personality into a face. I don't know what without thinking about it too in depth, but someway, somehow, there is a way for a crazy man to be a babyface. He'd be, I don't know how to describe it, sort of like the babyface Rated R Superstar Edge, sort of like a rock star/badass combo thing like he had. I don't know, I'm not gonna think about it that in depth. Right now I can't imagine how Sandow would play a babyface until I see him in another gimmick or at least a tweaked version, so that's #2. #3 is because the edgy persona is "in" at the moment. People love Punk's stuff to death, and Punk is both very different but also very similar to Ambrose as a character, and these qualities can bring him very far.

If any of the things I listed are what you meant when you said "it", feel free to tell me. I still think it's a misuse of the term, in any event, because not having "it" to me is synonymous with not being able to be a major player.
Look at a guy like Del Rio. Del Rio has one of the best WWE pedigrees. Comes from a great wrestling family. Great technical wrestler. He's charismatic even though his promos are one dimensional (meaning he sounds good during his promos but all of his promos are basically the same thing). But in my eyes, and the eyes of many others, he doesn't have that quality about him that when he's on TV, I don't turn the channel. In my opinion, Del Rio doesn't have the "IT" Factor. But even so, he's a two time WWE Champion, a MITB winner, a Royal Rumble winner, and now is challenging for the World Title at WWE's 2nd biggest PPV of the year.

In my eyes, I group Del Rio and Sandow together for this reason. I don't think Del Rio is boring like so many do. But at the same time, he doesn't make my needle to move. It's the same in my eyes for Sandow. I think Sandow has all of the skills to be a World or maybe even a WWE Champ. He's a great talent. But, again my opinion, he doesn't capture my interest like Ambrose does. I'm not saying Ambrose is so much better than Sandow. But, I do think he's better overall and will go farther in his career.

On an unrelated note, I'm not expecting Ambrose to debut until sometime after SSlam. Ambrose is great but he is still unproven on national television and a WWE audience. It wouldn't be smart to debut someone as good as Ambrose right before WWE's 2nd biggest PPV b/c he's still new and unproven and there really wouldn't be room for him on the card.

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post #2298 of 3754 (permalink) Old 08-04-2012, 12:26 PM
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Re: Dean Ambrose Pre-Debut Discussion Thread

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One thing I hope he's given is more flesh to his character's hatable qualities. They've obviously been going down that path with his vicious streak, although there are times where I fear that gets overlooked when people fawn over his mildly humorous 'schtick' (yes I used that work specifically). If I had things my way I'd be shedding light on his outbursts as reflecting his intolerance toward those he sees as undermining his 'crusade.' I'd hate for him show 'psychotic' traits just for the sake of it. Make him a vain personality through and through with the bolded being a key word, and maybe his actions can snowball into something increasingly reprehensible.

All this talk about building heel characteristics goes for Ambrose as well, pertaining to the subject at hand. I do think people will view him far more revoltingly than Sandow's somewhat ambiguous grounding as an intellectual, however. Ambrose (as a character) possesses very few likeable qualities, whereas some will support Sandow as an intellectual savour based on how much they personally value that quality.
That's a good point. I think it's much more likely that they will expect people to hate Sandow simply because he is intelligent, just as they expected people to hate Del Rio simply because he claimed to be rich and didn't really give him any other unlikeable traits. I put it down to McMahon being out of touch and not understanding vitriol directed towards himself. Ambrose should be different, since his character has a lot more depth and grounding than Sandow's.
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post #2299 of 3754 (permalink) Old 08-04-2012, 12:28 PM
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Re: Dean Ambrose Pre-Debut Discussion Thread

Just been looking at some Videos on Youtube, I can't wait for this guy to debut, I now know why most people love this guy.
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post #2300 of 3754 (permalink) Old 08-04-2012, 01:23 PM
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Re: Dean Ambrose Pre-Debut Discussion Thread

So Ambrose beat Riley at a Raw house show. Maybe he's gonna debut soon, had his first match since mid june.

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