When I watch a developmental talent wrestle, especially against a veteran, I look for things they do right that they can't be carried through specifically the presence and consistency of psychology, believability of facials and selling, audience intereaction, believability and stiffness of strikes, smoothness moving from spot to spot, how hard they attack the mat on bumps and the ropes when running, things of that nature. The least impressive thing to me is move execution especially when against a more experienced worker who can help them through the moves.
However it seems like everybody is this section buries people as being trash workers after a handful of matches even when they have the aforementioned elements down so I'm wondering what you guys are seeing that definitively allow you to say "such and such is terrible in ring".
Does it come down to moves or lack thereof? So far I've seen a lot of people be intentionally limited in the moves they do and everybody says the can't work and then a few short months later they magically become good or at least acceptable usually coinciding with higher profile matches where they are less limited
Ex:
Corbin
Brooke
Jordan
Carmella
Bliss
English
So what is it you guys see in 4 minute matches that clues you in on how terrible they are?
I don't like to say that people can't wrestle, I'll more say if I find them boring, and that is strictly an opinion matter. But I guess that thinking someone can or can't wrestle is also a matter of opinion.
How they react in promos are also a think: using Cesaro and Sheamus as examples here, when Cesaro botched the "four ropes" promo the botch didn't really annoy me and I wouldn't have thought much about it if he hadn't when he returned to correct himself. In the interview Sheamus had with Cole not too long ago he made a couple of mistakes as well, but he just kept going as if he didn't even care he misspoke. That to me makes a guy good at promos, being confident enough to not care if he botched a line.
I still wouldn't say that Corbin is a good wrestler by any standart, he's average, or watchable, and can be entertaining at times, but there are also times when I can't stand to watch his matches.
Might be I simply get bored, I can only see so many Corbin squash matches or hear Enzo & Cass' schtick so many times before I get bored with it.
So yeah, straight up opinion, it goes both ways really, I don't like this PC talent vs indy talent debate, some people say PC talent can't wrestle others say indy talent are boring, well it's all opinion, there is no magical list where it's like "Corbin can't wrestle, Finn Balor is boring, and that's fact!"
Keypoint it guess, you don't wrestle, you're not a sports entertainer, so how the fuck do you know for a fact what a good or entertaining wrestler is.
I don't trash a talent in her/his first match televised, because, well, you know, it's her/his debut and it's hard as fuck I think to be great when you debut. I decide after a good couple of matches that I like that talent or not. Now, always someone can turn me into a fan after a long time (Baron Corbin is a great example of this) and others turn me into a fan from the word GO (Dana Brooke). I really think some people are harsh with talent, I'm even still giving Eva a chance, he had a decent match with Bayley, and even tho she "carried" her, I still think Eva did her part. The same goes to Nia Jax, I don't like her...yet. Maybe both of them can do what Corbin did to get me impressed.
And some people praise Balor so fucking much and I think that he sucks because of this:
1) His entrance is the only awesome thing about him
2) His mic skills are fucking dreadful, even his Heel promos in New Japan were bad. And no, I don't say this because he is irish, because Sheamus & Becky have pretty good mic skills.
3) Average ring skills, Neville was a lot better, I even think he regressed in this department compared to his NJPW days.
Apollo Crews has showed so much more than Finn Bálor. Corbin is showing more charisma than Finn Bálor. And some people still hate Corbin like heel and praise Bálor like he is some kind of god. He isn't. If he wasn't in NJPW or the indies, probably nobody would treat him like this.
I'm gonna tell you this: I care about a talent because he is good and entertaining to me. I don't care where he comes from, the only thing I want is to be entertained, not bored. Crews is an indy talent and I like him, he isn't perfect, but I like him. Corbin is a PC talent, the same way goes for him.
If they don't do 10 different moves in a match (bonus points for moves made popular in Japan) then they are a piece of shit who deserves to be homeless on the streets instead of wrestling in my precious NXT.
Enzo isn't as bad a wrestler as some people keep saying. He was not that good 2 years back but his offense now is OK (if not amazing) and his ability to sell a move is good. That is just as important. Check out the way he took the Shatter Machine on its first tv showing. The way he got so much air and being right on the edge of control made the move.
I'd seen it before at a house show and was pretty meh mainly because the guy taking it didn't sell it well. Not seen it done as well since either.
To the subject of Enzo: all he needs to do is be the babyface in peril as Big Cass gets the hot tag. Ambrose did it in The Shield for 2 & 1/2 years and that worked out fine for him. His offense is just as mediocre as Enzo's with the flailing of the arms and silly moves. Enzo can sell really well, so play up that strength. Cass' hot tag is intense and reminds me of Test. That Big Boot is a thing of beauty.
The same standards I use for any other wrestler that gets presented on TV. If I have the opportunity to see someone wrestle their first match and they fail to show any sort of solid grasp on psychology, execution, showmanship, etc., they're not good. Period. Does that mean that I'm going to say that he or she is as hopeless useless as someone who comes from the indies and fails on about the same level? No because that would be pretty friggin' stupid since the newbie at least has the excuse that they're relatively new to the game and hasn't reached their ceiling yet. But all the same, a spade is a spade. I'd rather be just as hard on a newbie as I would a veteran because that comes across as less insulting and demeaning. I'd love to be told that I might suck now but if I keep at it, I'll be as good as [insert the wrestler you think is the bee's knees here] not be told I'm hot shit because I can finally learn how to sell facial expressions and dropkick without looking like a goof.
I never over analyze. I just go off if what they're doing in the ring is captivating me at all.
I also don't think it's wrong to call a talent shit if they're still green. It's just what they are and that doesn't mean they can't improve and get better.
I shitted on Corbin a hell of a lot but ever since turning heel I think he's done a tremendous job with cutting promos and in the ring. He just needs something more intimidating to go with his entrance.
Why do we need to speak in absolutes when discussing developing talent, why does it have to be "such and such fucking sucks, get em off my screen" especially after only a handful of matches when you know the possibility is real that a handful later you might end up the president of their fan club?
We've seen about 10 minutes total of Nia Jax and everybody is acting like she's Eva, those same people saw 2 minutes of Gionna and she's already the future face of the division. A year from now Nia could be putting on 4* TO matches and Gionna could be out of the company. Why can't people temper their reactions and say "Nia has been unimpressive, I hope she improves" or "Gionna showed some good things in her 2 minute match, can't wait to see how good she really is"?
When it comes to NXT, I am a very patient viewer and I am willing to give everyone a fair chance. I don't like over-analyzing things, so if a performer isn't connecting with me for some reasons it doesn't bother me that much.
It's more of what they CAN do than what they can't do with me. I immediately look for the IT factor in a new debut.
Does he or she carry themselves with confidence?
Do they have natural charisma?
Do they have a nice appearance and/or attire?
Can they play off the audience well?
What can they show me in this short match to make me give a damn about them?(moves, selling, athleticism, etc.)
If all 5 boxes get checked, I'm sold. If 3/5, I'll keep an eye on them. If below 3, I just don't care. If ZERO get checked in over two matches, :mjout
That's fair but I also don't think I've seen you flat out proclaim too many people garbage in ring, I'm not talking about the total package just ring work. It's okay to say Billie Kay doesn't have any charisma after her first match because that's something that should be immediately evident. But there are people still saying Zo and Cass are trash in ring when we only get to see them do one very limited schtick.
It's like people think "if I haven't seen the do much it's because they can't do much" which is retarded to me. The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence-- we didn't get to see Jordan do much in his year of jobbing and people were saying he couldn't wrestle. Three months later everybody loves him, did he improve leaps and bounds as a worker in 3 months or is he finally being allowed to show what he always could do?
Same with Corbin-- after his proper debut we didn't see him do a single move other than End of Days and just about everybody but you and me and a few others labeled him terrible. Remember all the "fewer moves than Roman" jokes? Now I think people are starting to realize he can go.
Fans certainly can be too quick to judge and suffer from anchoring bias.
It can be hard to explain as the qualities of a great Wrestler are often intangible. You often end up having to make an educated guess about something you're unable to do yourself but see on a regular basis, like any sport really.
Fans (me included) seem to get particularly pissed off when a company is trying to pass someone off as master warrior when it's obvious they're green as grass. It gets really bad when that wrestler thinks they've got this wrestling thing licked and abandons any thought of improvement.
I prefer to focus on how someone is booked as a poor wrestler can prove entertaining if they're in a good story and a great can look terrible if the opposite is true.
Of course people shouldn't be so quick and harsh in their judgements but WWE in particular has regularly tried to claim something mediocre is exceptional and now fans have become bullshit hunters.
When I first see someone it's mainly down to whether they can act a role, perform, tell a story through body language/facial expression, relate to an audience and at least look coordinated and perform moves competently. For divas, being hot helps and for the men, credibility/physically imposing appearance are pluses depending on style (exceptions if e.g. lucha high flyer or highly technical where size matters less). Rookies like Alexa Bliss, Gionna, Knox, Moss all show these qualities
After that it is really a case of how fast they improve in developing the skills to make a fight look more credible and entertaining. All four mentioned above have picked the physical side up fast. 3-4 months usually tells a lot.
EDIT: Just noticed, this doesn't answer the question - I'm saying what makes me decide people CAN wrestle not CAN'T. Doh. I need a few more months than 3 or 4 to tell if they cannot wrestle. Corbin for example did not look great in the first few months (partly due to booking) but he's pulled it around. If they show no hint of acting/audience connection in the first few months though, that is pretty fatal.
I don't think Enzo gets much of a shot to show what he can do. I remember that match he had with Sylvester LeFort a bit ago and he was really unimpressive in his offense but one thing Enzo has on his side is his selling. That's pretty much all he gets to do now when he tags with Cass. He has to sell so he can tag in Cass for the finish. I don't know how far he's come as a single's wrestler, he was just very underwhelming on offense the last time I saw him.
I think Enzo is one of the best storytellers in NXT even with the extremely limited amount of offense he gets in but to me limited doesn't mean bad and I think he's being intentionally limited to service the narrative.
I would love to see Enzo face one of the Eurothority hard hitters or even Samoa Slow and I think everybody would be on the edge of their seats and it would be special because you know he won't get completely squashed but you also don't know what tricks he has up his sleeves.
Even the beat down on The Mechanics was a big deal because he didn't look weak at all and held his own. When the aggressive side of Enzo comes out everybody is going to fucking mark.
Wow. The OP asked a simple question which should really require a simple response. I will do the honors since none of you have done so in five pages of this thread. Not surprised. I have been in a wrestling ring and have trained. I worked with Bam Bam Bigelow back in the mid 90's. It's simple people. When one says a person can't wrestle it should be due to these three things, coordination, timing, and selling. That's it. Stop writing five paragraphs trying to explain what you don't know. When you have zero coordination it's noticeable. If your timing is poor it's noticeable. When you can't sell a punch, or any move it's noticeable.
That's mostly what I thought it boiled down to as well but I see people with those things who still get labeled terrible so I wanted to know what people's individual criterion are, for instance Reigns is considered "terrible" due to his supposedly "poor cardio" and "limited moveset". While I personally think those are stupid reasons to call him terrible even if they were true for most people thats the end-all.
At this point I'm just starting to think anyone with a lower workrate is automatically considered bad.
I base my views on ring skills and mic skills the same for everyone. You either entertain me or your don't. In my eyes Corbin is a better wrestler than Balor since I'm more entertained by Corbin's matches.
I never over analyze. I just go off if what they're doing in the ring is captivating me at all.
I also don't think it's wrong to call a talent shit if they're still green. It's just what they are and that doesn't mean they can't improve and get better.
I shitted on Corbin a hell of a lot but ever since turning heel I think he's done a tremendous job with cutting promos and in the ring. He just needs something more intimidating to go with his entrance.
With rookie I just want to see that they have the fundamentals down. I do t like seeing wrestlers that are trying for all these spots but still look sloppy with basic wrestling holds and proper selling. In ring work can be developed. Character wise, they don't have to be oozing with charisma but they have to have a grasp on the character they are portraying amd do it with confidence.
personally, I think enzo has improved a bunch. I also at one point thought he was kinda "sawft" but I just feel over this past year he's gotten better. now I don't think his ring skills will ever catch up with his mic work, but to me he's pretty solid.
It's far easier to determine when someone has it. With Chad Gable, you knew it right away.
To Corbin's credit, he's evolved and improved. I think it has a lot to do with him playing a character close to who he really is. If you've watched Breaking Ground, you can see Corbin has a chip on his shoulder.
I'm one of those people that will trash a talent if they suck but if they have something I don't lose hope.
I haven't given up on Mojo Rawley, for example, like some people here have. He hasn't evolved and shown much improvement but he hasn't been given much of a chance. The guy can talk and has some charisma and if he can find the right character and get better in the ring, he's a future player. I think he could go right into Baron Corbin's role as a heel, once Corbin goes to the main roster. He's more obnoxious and annoying than asshole-ish and cold like Corbin, so he'd be a different type of heel. I don't think that NXT crowd will ever embrace Mojo as he is, so going heel is the way to go.
Mojo has improved by leaps and bounds only it's not cool to say lest you get kicked out of the IWC circle jerk. Is Mojo obnoxious? Absolutely, much in the same way as early Ryder or even dare I say, Enzo and Cass. The difference is Mojo was pretty bad with his ass based offense but he was still being pushed and reports came out of the powers that be looking at him as the next Cena.
Once you get a negative rep around here people will ignore all new information to keep shitting on you which is why you still hear shit like "Botchnomi" even though Becky has botched more since the start of the Diva's revolution or Reigns has "three moves of doom" even though his moveset is in the double digits.
Mojo is extremely charismatic and a great promo, he's developing his moveset, he's one of the best strikers in NXT, he's developing his character into a full on frat douche instead of just a catchphrase, his cardio has improved to be more appropriate to his gimmick (like his idol Warrior he used to get gassed just doing his entrance). The only real question remaining about Mojo is what is his psychology like? Right now he's in a limited hot tag role so he doesn't get to do much storytelling.
I cant really think of to many times where I said someone cant wrestle. Most of my post are generally about how terrible the character is or maybe a lack of moves but I cant remember many times where I said that someone can't wrestle. Eva Marie I think is the only time I flat out said someone couldn't wrestle and at the time she couldn't.
Everyone's definition of what a good wrestler is different and for the most part, it's hard to exactly put your finger of what you like, we just know it when we see it.
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Related Threads
?
?
?
?
?
Wrestling Forum
23.4M posts
266.5K members
Since 2002
A forum community dedicated to all Wrestling enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about WWE, AEW, Ring of Honor, Impact and all forms of professional and amateur wrestling.