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post #31 of 49 (permalink) Old 11-15-2012, 10:13 AM
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Re: How would you make faces likeable again? (create/recreate a top babyface)

I think people who want shades of grey aren't on the wrong track, just perhaps going about it backwards.

Heroes should always try to do the right thing. However, they shouldn't always win because of it. Sometimes, doing the right thing costs the short term victory. Sometimes what seems like the right thing, isn't. The heroes shouldn't win just because they're the heroes. And the ones who don't act accordingly shouldn't be treated in the story as heroes.
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post #32 of 49 (permalink) Old 11-15-2012, 12:25 PM
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Re: How would you make faces likeable again? (create/recreate a top babyface)

Babyfaces have always sucked up the the fans. People should stop acting like this is new. The Rock did it, Jericho did it, Austin did it every face does this it. Pandering to the crowd isn't anything new. The attitude era had plenty of it. Its not about relating to the character. I highly doubt anybody could relate to The Rock, Chris Jericho, Mick Foley or Undertaker.

Whether the IWC realizes it or not, babyfaces are still very much loved. Always have been & always will be. Most people still don't cheer the heels. The only thing I would like to see is babyfaces getting to show more personality. Rarely are they allowed to. I enjoy seeing a babyface pushed to his limit and losing his temper. I think thats when faces like Cena & Kofi are their best. To me, they are natural babyfaces. Cena didn't pull off heel that well and I can't see Kofi doing it either. Every face doesn't need to be a dick like Austin. You can be the Hogan type babyface & be successful. Just gotta show a little bit more every once in a while.

The other problem is the weak heels WWE is throwing out. Heels need to be nastier, more mean and booked stronger. I don't mean going over babyfaces clean a lot. Dirty wins are what get heels heat. Heels should very rarely get a clean win over babyfaces. Monster like Mark Henry, Big Show, Kane are the guys that can get clean wins. Ziggler, Miz, Rhodes are the heels who win dirty 98& of the time. The heels shouldn't run from the babyfaces all the time like they do now either. If the heels are respected as bad guys it doesn't mean anything when the faces beat them.

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Originally Posted by Asenath View Post
I think people who want shades of grey aren't on the wrong track, just perhaps going about it backwards.

Heroes should always try to do the right thing. However, they shouldn't always win because of it. Sometimes, doing the right thing costs the short term victory. Sometimes what seems like the right thing, isn't. The heroes shouldn't win just because they're the heroes. And the ones who don't act accordingly shouldn't be treated in the story as heroes.
well said.

Who is Johnny Curtis? Nobody...just the future of WWE!

Last edited by #PushKofiKingston; 11-15-2012 at 12:29 PM.
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post #33 of 49 (permalink) Old 11-15-2012, 03:50 PM
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Re: How would you make faces likeable again? (create/recreate a top babyface)

Stop making the product so damn saccrine and slanted towards optimism that it just naturally makes itself rediculously biased towards the top faces. I don't want a rediculously dark and gritty product either, just one that isn't thematically biased for one set of wrestlers and/or biased against another set of wrestlers for the sake of cultivating this aura of being "safe" or "edgy" without any regards towards the credibility of the wrestlers or the quality of the storytelling.

I beleive this is probably seventy-five of the reason why the IWC is biased against top faces, the show goes out of its way to make its top faces look good even when doing so is outright hypocritical (Cena humiliating Miceah Cole for example) or excessive to the point of heavily diminishing returns (Sheamus's run as champion in general) or outright backlash (Sheamus vs Daniel Bryan at Wrestlemania).
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post #34 of 49 (permalink) Old 11-15-2012, 04:06 PM
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Re: How would you make faces likeable again? (create/recreate a top babyface)

I think overall, the writing either needs to be stepped up big time or scaled back big time. They're in this middle right now where they want to be some srs scripted tv show but the writing is on a third grade level. They don't need to have a bunch of Hollywood TV writers to write simple shit. Either go back to putting 2 visually different, easily identifiable charcters in the ring and letting the story tell itself, or start writing everyone with a lot more nuance and depth, rather than the 1 dimensional one size fits all babyface persona and the cowardly heel that also makes a lot of good points.
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post #35 of 49 (permalink) Old 11-16-2012, 07:22 AM
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Re: How would you make faces likeable again? (create/recreate a top babyface)

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Originally Posted by #PushKofiKingston View Post
Whether the IWC realizes it or not, babyfaces are still very much loved. Always have been & always will be. Most people still don't cheer the heels. .
loved by who? brats who are gonna bounce in a few years? Barney and the teletubbies are still loved so thats nothing to brag about

its about what's right and whats wrong
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post #36 of 49 (permalink) Old 11-16-2012, 07:34 AM
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Re: How would you make faces likeable again? (create/recreate a top babyface)

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And what did that drug addict have that none of the current babyfaces have again?

Maybe we should transfer it to the current faces of the company, if that is possible.
You could sympathise with him not able to win the 'big one'.He was getting the biggest pops from the crowd.He went against a great heel in Edge and then CM Punk.
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post #37 of 49 (permalink) Old 11-16-2012, 09:07 AM
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Re: How would you make faces likeable again? (create/recreate a top babyface)

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loved by who? brats who are gonna bounce in a few years? Barney and the teletubbies are still loved so thats nothing to brag about

its about what's right and whats wrong
The idea that babyfaces are only cheered by kids is ridiculous. Are the kids a big part of their fan base? Yes but have you ever looked at the crowd? Its not just kids cheering the babyface. Believe it or not, a lot of adults don't feel the same way about babyfaces as the people on this forum.

I have no idea what you mean by right & wrong. This isn't a right & wrong situation.

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Last edited by #PushKofiKingston; 11-16-2012 at 09:09 AM.
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post #38 of 49 (permalink) Old 11-16-2012, 09:54 AM Thread Starter
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Re: How would you make faces likeable again? (create/recreate a top babyface)

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Originally Posted by #PushKofiKingston View Post
The idea that babyfaces are only cheered by kids is ridiculous. Are the kids a big part of their fan base? Yes but have you ever looked at the crowd? Its not just kids cheering the babyface. Believe it or not, a lot of adults don't feel the same way about babyfaces as the people on this forum.

I have no idea what you mean by right & wrong. This isn't a right & wrong situation.
Of course you're right in saying that they aren't unpopular. However, there's currently no one with the sort of ground breaking popularity needed to kickstart a new era. There always seems a reason to dislike someone who needs to be liked based on some sort of incompatibility with audience members, mismanagement or general boobery of creative and head guys. Also, this thread was created in hopes of understanding my fellow (someone pointed that out earlier, which I agree was a bad choice of words on my part) IWC members' viewpoints on WWE characters and which areas they think this problem can be attributed to.

One other thing that should be mentioned is the overexposure certain characters get. I realise the company have a tendency to run things into the ground, but jesus christ at it occurring lately. Understandable in some cases as the flagship show is at a menacing three hour pace, but it leads onto another potential point: is WWE more preoccupied with sending the live audience home happy every night at the expense of the television audience? Longevity and ability to handle long-reaching stories is a pretty foreign concept nowadays (although not entirely forgotten as that WWE love triangle illustrated to some degree), so is it a case of the company being happy with giving the live audience much of what they want in one night? Is it coming at the expense of those watching at home hoping for stories that don't end in one month and are at least conceptualised and considered by creative to last over a couple of months?
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post #39 of 49 (permalink) Old 11-16-2012, 10:47 AM
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Re: How would you make faces likeable again? (create/recreate a top babyface)

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Originally Posted by -Skullbone- View Post
Of course you're right in saying that they aren't unpopular. However, there's currently no one with the sort of ground breaking popularity needed to kickstart a new era. There always seems a reason to dislike someone who needs to be liked based on some sort of incompatibility with audience members, mismanagement or general boobery of creative and head guys. Also, this thread was created in hopes of understanding my fellow (someone pointed that out earlier, which I agree was a bad choice of words on my part) IWC members' viewpoints on WWE characters and which areas they think this problem can be attributed to.

One other thing that should be mentioned is the overexposure certain characters get. I realise the company have a tendency to run things into the ground, but jesus christ at it occurring lately. Understandable in some cases as the flagship show is at a menacing three hour pace, but it leads onto another potential point: is WWE more preoccupied with sending the live audience home happy every night at the expense of the television audience? Longevity and ability to handle long-reaching stories is a pretty foreign concept nowadays (although not entirely forgotten as that WWE love triangle illustrated to some degree), so is it a case of the company being happy with giving the live audience much of what they want in one night? Is it coming at the expense of those watching at home hoping for stories that don't end in one month and are at least conceptualised and considered by creative to last over a couple of months?
I understand what you're saying and completely agree. In my opinion the biggest problem is the lack of credible heels. New top babyfaces need to be made and a mid-card needs to be established but to be a great babyface, you have to a great heel to go against. The heels today are booked weak and its usually surprising when they win against heels.

Gotta build some credible heels up. One who can legit seem like a threat to babyfaces. I'm not saying they should go over faces clean because winning dirty is a way to establish heel heat for heels. Guys like Henry, Big Show, Kane(when playing the monster heel) are guys who should/can beat faces clean.

The writing needs to get better too. Storylines are too predictable. Don't necessarily need Vince Russo twist but creative needs to be CREATIVE. In the end, it all comes down to booking & storylines. Book the heels stronger & write better angles. Do faces need more character development? Yes but I wouldn't consider that a big issue compared to the others.

Who is Johnny Curtis? Nobody...just the future of WWE!
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post #40 of 49 (permalink) Old 11-16-2012, 10:49 AM
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Re: How would you make faces likeable again? (create/recreate a top babyface)

simple...stop having them kiss the crowds ass.

Faces used to get over by combating the evil deeds of heels, not by catering to everything the crowd asks for.
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