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post #21 of 49 (permalink) Old 11-14-2012, 05:13 PM
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Re: How would you make faces likeable again? (create/recreate a top babyface)

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Originally Posted by legendmaker2 View Post
Ryback is getting popular, and hes a babyface so i don't know what you are saying OP.
Ryback is too early into his career to cite, he's riding a momentum wave and we have no idea how long it will last. They key thing with Ryback's longevity will be what WWE does with that momentum to build his character into something sustainable, otherwise he's just going to be another flavour of the month.
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post #22 of 49 (permalink) Old 11-14-2012, 05:36 PM
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Re: How would you make faces likeable again? (create/recreate a top babyface)

Give them an attitude. I don't mean "Attitude Era", I just mean an attitude. People like John Cena and Sheamus are such fucking pussies, they crack bad jokes, they lose world titles and come out smiling the next night, etc. That's why, as incredibly untalented as he is, Ryback has gotten over so well, he has an attitude, he's an unfeeling monster who destroys people. That's what people want, they don't want Barney the dinosaur, this isn't the 1980's. Babyfaces need an edge to them, whether that edge be as a killer, or as a trash talker who doesn't take crap from anybody, they need to be catering to today's audience, and what today's audience wants is not a smiling, happy go lucky idiot. This isn't the crowd that leaves out milk and cookies for Santa anymore.

They need a lot more mic time to showcase their personalities too. Also, as we've seen with Ryback, catchphrases WORK. Get back to them. We've wandered too far away from catchphrases. And his isn't even good, what a STUPID catchphrase, and yet the crowd loves it, so imagine what you can do with a good one, like they used to have back in the day.

If only...


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post #23 of 49 (permalink) Old 11-14-2012, 05:40 PM
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Re: How would you make faces likeable again? (create/recreate a top babyface)

Isn't Ryback more of a tweener anyway?

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post #24 of 49 (permalink) Old 11-14-2012, 07:07 PM
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Again another topic with a question that makes no sense. A face is likable which makes them a face.. smh

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post #25 of 49 (permalink) Old 11-14-2012, 07:35 PM
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Re: How would you make faces likeable again? (create/recreate a top babyface)

Its simple, so simple actually. All you need to do is create faces which people can relate to and get behind. That have character flaws and struggles like any other person goes through. Whilst Austin was a bad ass the main reason why I think he got over so well was because he came across like an every day guy who was going through having his boss treat him like shit. And Austin's character had flaws: he didn't take shit from anybody, he didn't respect authority which we are taught to do from a young age (see school), he had an attitude problem which led to him doing things which in reality, he shouldn't be doing but wanted to do. These are all things we can relate to in some form or another.

The reason why faces like Cena, Sheamus and Kofi aren't as great babyfaces as they could or should be is because at times they don't even come across as human. They don't react to bad situations, they don't get really mad or upset, or do things in a reaction or a desperate attempt to rectify things. There is no sense of a struggle to the top and no human characteristics which make people and me in particular want to get behind them like I did with Stone Cold or Rock. A big part of it as a few people mentioned is a lack of attitude behind the characters. Cena, Sheamus and Kofi are huge examples of faces where at least half the time they don't have a sense of attitude. Everything is happy go lucky and they are pretty much a goody too shoes. Can't do anything wrong at all. Its boring. You can't invest in a character like that.

People are going to hate me for using this example but its so true and its a recent one, so it shows the impact of what I'm talking about. The reason why AJ right now is so over casuals is exactly the reasons I am talking about. She isn't your typical barbie whole girl like Kelly Kelly who was only popular for her looks. She looks like someone you could hang out with in real life and the things she's been through people can relate to and get invested in as far as her character is concerned. Like for example, her relationship with Daniel Bryan and how he treated her and then subsequently dumping her. The fact that she gets easily attached because of unrequired love and the fact that she feels no one loves her. Even the current storyline as horrible as it is shows an example of what I'm talking about because of her being falsely accused of something which cost her her GM role and the way she is reacting to it all. She is also not a character without flaws, she has volatile mood swings and can act like a real psychopath. Her snapping at Kaitlyn several times after she got dumped by Bryan is great example of this. She could have easily been portrayed as a heel after that but her actions generated a lot of sympathy for her. Her character is very real and human (regardless if you think the execution of it is bad ) which is why the majority of fans are latching on to her.

If WWE created more faces that were more like actual people with struggles and flaws to their character instead of trying to make ones that are super human and can't do anything wrong, we would have better faces to foil the heels. But alas for now, I'm mostly routing for the heels. At least a lot of them have something I can relate to and get invested in.



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Last edited by Melisandre of Asshai; 11-14-2012 at 07:38 PM.
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post #26 of 49 (permalink) Old 11-14-2012, 09:50 PM
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Re: How would you make faces likeable again? (create/recreate a top babyface)

NXT: Redemption actually did a good job with this subject. Therefore, the correct answer to this question is: Derrick Bateman.
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post #27 of 49 (permalink) Old 11-14-2012, 10:12 PM
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Re: How would you make faces likeable again? (create/recreate a top babyface)

What I want basically is for the heels to become faces without changing their character and the faces to be replaced with bigger heels than the current heels. WWE does a fairly decent job of booking faces, but they portray those faces as heels (and have them lose too often). The characters WWE wants their fans to cheer are simply uninteresting and should be replaced by monster heels and truly evil heels that are easy to hate.

For example, the Alberto Del Rio VS Sheamus feud would have been better if they reversed the face and heel. Sheamus should have been booked as the monster heel that was constantly bullying Del Rio and Del Rio as the underdog who kept coming back and giving his best effort to fight against the big bully. The crowd would have been behind Del Rio and would hate Sheamus. Another example is with John Cena. Basically keep John Cena as the same bullying character, but turn the bullying up a few notches and portray his victim as sympathetic and Cena will have massive heat. The way to re-establish good faces and heels in WWE is to have all the top faces in WWE (also including CM Punk and Big Show) join forces in some massive heel faction to hold onto their spots and basically hold down everybody else on the roster. To make things somewhat more original, WWE should have them go after every title, with each wrestler not particularly caring which specific belt they hold (for example, Cena wouldn't care if he's the US Champ or WWE Champ, so long as his group holds all the gold). If their opponents are treated as credible, WWE can get new, sympathetic, faces over to go against their former top faces. That could really get the likes of Daniel Bryan, Dolph Ziggler, Alberto Del Rio and Cody Rhodes over huge as faces. Cena, Orton, Sheamus, Punk, Big Show and Ryback could all be over huge as heels if WWE did this. WWE should ideally keep Lesnar, Rock, Foley, Taker and HHH out of this because they are part-timers and should be used as part-time faces (without overshadowing the other faces too much) because all of them are beloved by the fans.

Top 5 matches of 2012 so far:
1: Tetsuya Naito VS Kazuchika Okada, NJPW, 3/4 (*****)
2: Austin Aries VS Bobby Roode, TNA, 8/12 (*****)
3: Hirooki Goto VS Hiroshi Tanahashi, NJPW, 4/8 (****3/4)
4: James Storm VS Bobby Roode, TNA, 4/15 (****3/4)
5: Austin Aries VS Bobby Roode, TNA, 7/8 (****3/4)
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post #28 of 49 (permalink) Old 11-15-2012, 09:01 AM Thread Starter
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Re: How would you make faces likeable again? (create/recreate a top babyface)

Some well thought out responses so far. Good to see stuff like this amongst the sea of shit that plugs up this section. There’s always that obligatory “duh” post, however…

Quote:
Again another topic with a question that makes no sense. A face is likable which makes them a face.. smh
Think harder bub.

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Originally Posted by ezuvgu View Post
WWE does a fairly decent job of booking faces, but they portray those faces as heels (and have them lose too often). The characters WWE wants their fans to cheer are simply uninteresting and should be replaced by monster heels and truly evil heels that are easy to hate.
It's interesting to see this viewpoint and then compare it to someone else’s.

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Originally Posted by Tyrion Lannister View Post
That's what people want, they don't want Barney the dinosaur, this isn't the 1980's. Babyfaces need an edge to them, whether that edge be as a killer, or as a trash talker who doesn't take crap from anybody, they need to be catering to today's audience, and what today's audience wants is not a smiling, happy go lucky idiot. This isn't the crowd that leaves out milk and cookies for Santa anymore.
And then this.

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Stop making the bad guys likeable or funny. They need to be despised, detested mother-fuckers, not people that get cheers. If a villain does something that gets a positive reaction, tell them to stop doing it. Your good guys are only as strong as your bad guys make them.
I know there’s plenty of talk about heels needing to be revamped, but surely it’s fair to say that their roles are a lot less ‘refined,’ shall we say, than what a top babyface sets out to do. A heel’s job in a nutshell is get people to dislike him/her and get more people behind the opposing babyface. This is oversimplifying things, of course, as I’m taking away a host of other variables that may come into play when the company sells something as a big commodity. One thing that’s looking ominous, though, is the fact that the company can no longer make a top face commodity likeable enough to appeal to a big-enough majority as a stand-alone commodity.

On one hand, many people think that these Mary Sue face characters lack an edge and are disgustingly opaque in how the company shoves them in the collective audience’s face. However, many also think that faces are too hypocritical and contradictory with their actions. Why is AJ such a conniving slut? Why was Teddy Long such an unmitigated son of a bitch with his favoritism? Then you have guys like Cena who fight cancer, have angelic choirs usher them into Wrestlemania and talk about respect, yet flip their lid on a MITB cash-in as if their house was burnt down in front of them.

There has been a lot of talk about characters like Cena abandoning their ‘sportsmanship’ and doing things either ridiculously (and infuriatingly) ‘clean’ in the context of pro wrestling, or utterly mean spirited at other times. I do this myself as I too find WWE’s attempts at PR quite amusing. Regardless, I think that public image is a big problem with the current climate. In Vince McMahon’s awkward attempt at changing his company’s identity to a broader entertainment vehicle (rather than just being pro wrestling) he’s trying to appease everyone and everything with flawless ‘safe’ face characters without any real logic or consistency behind them. There are a couple of exceptions to this contradictory goody-two-shoes trend in Orton and Ryback, but even their acts are quite transparent to older audiences (poor writing in Orton’s case and probably talent in Ryback’s case).

I think the main focus should be simply playing up the likeability of the performers strengths, particularly with the up-and-coming faces. Take Sheamus for example. Right now he’s becoming a little more human-esque, thus tolerable, but not long before he was utterly intolerable as international Cena lite without the airtight confidence John possesses. I get why they made Sheamus into the jovial Irishman that possesses the invulnerability of superface characters (appropriate given his appearance). However, I feel the man behind Sheamus comes off as a little meek in projecting his character and isn’t nearly as captivating as the man behind John Cena is in spite of the importance WWE now place on him. His strengths aren’t John Cena’s, so I see no reason why management can’t take note of what roles their performers are naturally comfortable in and try and ‘manage’ those strengths appropriately.

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Originally Posted by Comrade Chico View Post
It's hard to cheer someone who doesn't even act human. My advice is, pull the joystick plugs out of their asses and let them look/act humanoid from time to time.
Co-signed, alongside many of those in the thread that call for a more sympathetic dimension in top faces. It's interesting that people shit over Punk's face character when he was a good example of the hardened heroic soul with the air of vulnerability surrounding him (pretty similar to his beloved Batman in that regard). Perhaps it was the angles he was involved in that turned so many people off. Perhaps he was too vulnerable and was made to look emasculated. I'd say it was a bit of both, but I maintain that face CM Punk was reasonably well done in humanizing a personality that so many claim they should do more of. I do think that they went a bit far in some of these less desirable qualities, however, such as showcasing weaknesses and being made to look penniless all too often.

A lot of other good points posted in here as well (good to see someone else seeing potential in a face Miz). Hopefully the thread survives so we can get some more insight on what other fans think would help make company babyfaces likeable.

Last edited by -Skullbone-; 11-15-2012 at 09:04 AM.
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post #29 of 49 (permalink) Old 11-15-2012, 09:07 AM
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Re: How would you make faces likeable again? (create/recreate a top babyface)

bring back the grey shade in wrestling, the era of "black or white" or "good vs evil" is 20 years over by now, people want personality, they want edge, they don't want some fool telling them how much he loves them

I don't see the problem with badass characters, that's maybe the only reason that makes me adjust to the Goldberg clone, because he doesn't smile like a goof and has a badass character, ripped off or not

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post #30 of 49 (permalink) Old 11-15-2012, 09:58 AM
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Re: How would you make faces likeable again? (create/recreate a top babyface)

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Originally Posted by -Skullbone- View Post
So I ask you, members of the IWC,
excluding yourself?

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Originally Posted by -Skullbone- View Post
throw some ideas out there and create a good face character or even revamp a current face character that you think will make him/her more appealing.
heres an idea i gurantee you wont hear or read outside of actual wrestling fans

HAVE NO BABYFACES AT ALL

its no secret to anyone on the planet with a functional and willful brain that no-one is a saint, NO-ONE, so just labeling someone as a good guy is constraintive in more ways than one

so just have everyone be who they wish to be on camera, without the handcuffs and let the public decide who they want to cheer for, AS LONG AS THE WRESTLERS ARE PROFESSIONAL ABOUT IT

Last edited by nevereveragainu; 11-15-2012 at 10:18 AM.
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