is being the biggest draw a good enough reason to be considered the goat ? - Page 6 - Wrestling Forum : WWE, TNA, Debate League, Wrestling Videos, Women of Wrestling Forums
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Old 09-29-2012, 06:14 AM   #51 (permalink)
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Default Re: Is being the biggest draw a good enough reason to be considered the goat?

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Originally Posted by Hart Break Kid View Post
i understand 80 percent of the population will go to see a curise movie over a pacino movie... cruises name alone makes the movie sell.... but at the same time pacino will win the award for best actor and also place higher in the all time greatest actors list while cruise is raking in the money.. and i can live with that one is rewarded in money the other rewarded for his ability with honors.

Flair should be above hogan in the goat list just like.
deniro comes in ahead of schwarzenegger on the goat of all time actors list and rightly so
HBK should be above Austin in the goat list just like
pacino comes in ahead of tom cruise in the goat actors list.
undertaker should be ahead of the rock just like
nicholson is ahead of dwayne johnson on the all time greatest actos list

I am not a huge fan of comparing actors to wrestlers.Hulk Hogan is like Harrison Ford.Harrison Ford starred in two of the greatest franchises of all time.Similar to that,Hogan was responsible for two booms.Flair,Shawn and Taker are not ahead of Hogan,Austin and Rock.Who gives a shit about awards?I would rather be Tom Cruise and enjoy being loved by millions across th globe and 50 million paycheck than someone like De Niro who gets awards and has a paycheck way less
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Old 09-29-2012, 06:21 AM   #52 (permalink)
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Default Re: Is being the biggest draw a good enough reason to be considered the goat?

To answer the question of this thread, I will say No. I mean, being the biggest draw in history, doesn't make you authomaticlly the goat, but it obviously can make you one of the all-time greats. if we take a look back to each generation and its biggest stars: Hogan in the 80's, Austin & Rock in the Attitude era and Cena in the last 8 years, all of them reached an unmatchable popularity and all of them are also considered among the greatest overall wrestlers of all time. Does it make them overall better than HBK, Angle, Taker, etc? not sure. look at the Undertaker, for example: he have never been THE biggest star of any generation, but a couple of years ago he won a big poll for the greatest superstar in history of Raw, by a landslide, while Cena was voted 2nd. so the Undertaker is an example of a wrestler who haven't reached the amount of popularity that SCSA, Hogan, Cena and Rock have reached, but he is still considered by fans the greatest of all time. and that is the proof that being the biggest star is not the only category wrestling fans take in to consideration, in order to judge who is the overall greatest ever.
now, I will tell you how I see it, personally: for me, an overall greatness is judged by the following categories:

* Booking: if we like it or not, in order to become a real great, you need an impressive booking. you need to win most of the matches, you have to step in the ring with some of the toppest guys and to overpower them. you have to be looked like "THE ONE TO BEAT" guy. you can do it in the Cena's way, by taking a hard beat in matches, suffering, but usually ending as the big winner. and you can also do it in the old and good Kane's way, by stepping with some of the biggest names in the company and demolish them. bottom line- you get to be looked stronger than your oponents, in the end of the day. no doubt that the booking category is the one of those who make you "bigger than life", and perhaps the most important category of all.

* Popularity & drawing power: another category to take into consideration, since its critical for the "bigger than life" character. it's not enought to beat the whall roster, if you don't have a fan-support and don't get huge pops in your entrances. I mean, you must become an issue. look at Shamous, for example- he fits perfectlly in the booking category I have mentioned above, but fans just don't care about him. so, perhaps, he gets good pops, but not HUGE pops like the other top guys use to recieved, and he have not the fan-base like the other great names. at the very best, people will say "shamous is good"/ "shamous is strong", but no one will consider him "WOW!". bottom line- you have to leave a deep impression on the fans!

Those 2 categories are enought to make wrestlers greats. but, if we talk about overall greatness, there are some categories which can make a big difference between the greats:

* Wrestling style: well, I would say this category make a big difference between the great themselves. I mean, if a wrestler haven't the 2 categories mentioned above in his favour, he will never be considered in my book as a great- no metter how stunning his wrestling style is.
but... this category will, no doubt, make the difference between wrestlers who fit into those 2 categories above. take Stone Cold for example: I don't like his wrestling style at all! and that is one of the reasons why I would rank him lower than the other all-time greats. if I need to come up with an all-time greatest 10 list, the ranking will be based mainly on the style category.

* Realable, believable and authentic performanc: this is another category to make the difference. I mean, the wrestler need to make me believe in his character and his in ring performances, in order to be ranked above the other greats in my list. I will give Stone Cold as a bad example again: in my eyes, he is one of the least believable characters and wrestlers to ever stepped in the WWE ring. he is not a good technical wrestler, nor a great achrobatic, has one of the crappiest finishers, and he is also far from being a powerhouse. those facts make me wonder (!) why and how he beat guys like Taker and Kane who are much (!!!!) stronger, bigger, feared, and more devestading than him. so yes, he have beaten them all, but it seems very strange and not realable to me. the way he finishes off his opponents, with a kick to the gut and stunner is so awefull, so pathethic, that it make me feel like his victories are more of the other guy's loss than his win. it really seems to me like the opponents make efforts to job, giving him the victory.
in the other hand, there are some greats/ future greats who really cought my eyes, couse of their realable and authentic performances, like: Goldberg in WCW, Kane, Taker and Ryback (as mega-powerhouses), or HBK and Kurt Angle (as great technicals). when I see one of those guys beating their opponents, I'm really impressed. it looks so real, so authentic. I really believe they beat the crap out of opponents, by their own abbillities.

that's it.
by the way, Not along time ago, I made a list of the all-time greatest 50 WWE wrestlers, based on the 4 categories mentioned above . and here are the wrestlers who made it to the top 10 (in order):

#1. John Cena
#2. Undertaker
#3. Hulk Hogan
#4. Kurt Angle
#5. Kane
#6. Shawn Michaels
#7. The Rock
#8. Steve Austin
#9. Diesel
#10. Ultimate Warrior

that list is only for WWE superstars, and if we include all wrestling organizations I will put WCW's Goldberg at #1 with Cena (can't decide between them). also, I really believe Ryback is about to stand alongside with Cena and Goldberg at the all-time #1 position, in the future.
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Old 09-29-2012, 06:25 AM   #53 (permalink)
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Default Re: Is being the biggest draw a good enough reason to be considered the goat?

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Originally Posted by Shutthehellup View Post
I am not a huge fan of comparing actors to wrestlers.Hulk Hogan is like Harrison Ford.Harrison Ford starred in two of the greatest franchises of all time.Similar to that,Hogan was responsible for two booms.Flair,Shawn and Taker are not ahead of Hogan,Austin and Rock.Who gives a shit about awards?I would rather be Tom Cruise and enjoy being loved by millions across th globe and 50 million paycheck than someone like De Niro who gets awards and has a paycheck way less
this isnt about who theyd rather be.... they are who they are.. and im just saying in the movie business acting skills is recognised before ability to make money and be a draw... and i dont understand why it isnt the same way in the wrestling business when in actual fact both industries arent that dissimilar... both require the same skills,presence,charisma, and ability to be marketable and draw interest in. but when the awards are being handed out or the accolades the guys who can actually act get honored over the guys who sell more tickets.. simple as that.

its a messed up system that is in turn making new generations come through concentrate far too much on look and being marketable than actual in ring ability and skills because theyre seeing that those things dont make you the best in the industry... and so we end up with guys like the MIZ coming through ( miz has improved vastly) but when he first turned up... having little or no actual skills and then trying be the best knowing well doesnt really matter what i can do in the ring it never stopped .... being the goat.
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Old 09-29-2012, 06:35 AM   #54 (permalink)
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Default Re: is being the biggest draw a good enough reason to be considered the goat ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by austin316 G.O.A.T View Post

2.Acting-

My opinion :

Tom Cruise>De Niro
Thank god you said "My opinion" because nobody is gonna buy that.
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Old 09-29-2012, 06:37 AM   #55 (permalink)
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Default Re: Is being the biggest draw a good enough reason to be considered the goat?

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Originally Posted by Hart Break Kid View Post
im just saying in the movie business acting skills is recognised before ability to make money and be a draw...
I disagree with this statement.The producer of movie will definetly give importance to a guy who makes a lot of money
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Old 09-29-2012, 06:43 AM   #56 (permalink)
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Default Re: Is being the biggest draw a good enough reason to be considered the goat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by austin316 G.O.A.T View Post
2.Acting-

My opinion :

Cruise has had more entertaining movies than De Niro

De Niro had more talent in acting skills than Cruise.

But Tom Cruise>De Niro

Quote:
Originally Posted by robertdeniro View Post
Thank god you said "My opinion" because nobody is gonna buy that.
1.I have said De Niro is a better actor

2.But Tom Cruise is a bigger star

3.You edited my post and posted what you want.

Last edited by austin316 G.O.A.T : 09-29-2012 at 06:48 AM.
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Old 09-29-2012, 06:45 AM   #57 (permalink)
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Default Re: Is being the biggest draw a good enough reason to be considered the goat?

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Originally Posted by Shutthehellup View Post
I disagree with this statement.The producer of movie will definetly give importance to a guy who makes a lot of money

no the producers will give importance to whatever suits the movie best...

if its a script that requires little acting skills but a major star to make it sell then theyll bring in a major star and pay big money to get the movie over..... atallones,arnies,sandlers...

if its a slightly demanding part but still needs a big name to make it sell then theyll look for a
a lister with acting chops pitts,dicaprios,depps....

if its a really demanding role then theyll bring in the guy they think can pull it off... pacinos,nicholsons,..
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Old 09-29-2012, 06:52 AM   #58 (permalink)
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Default Re: Is being the biggest draw a good enough reason to be considered the goat?

It's a personal thing, I love hogan and flair because of their charisma not because of $$$.
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Old 09-29-2012, 06:52 AM   #59 (permalink)
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Default Re: Is being the biggest draw a good enough reason to be considered the goat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by austin316 G.O.A.T View Post
1.I have said De Niro is a better actor

2.But Tom Cruise is a bigger star

3.You edited my post and posted what you want.
I don't give a shit about who is the bigger star,De Niro is arguably the greatest actor of all time,Tom Cruise on the other hand is not even close.
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Michael Cole:"The biggest Smackdown and WWE superstar of all time,the legendary Undertaker".
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Old 09-29-2012, 06:53 AM   #60 (permalink)
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Default Re: Is being the biggest draw a good enough reason to be considered the goat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by austin316 G.O.A.T View Post
To robertdeniro

Acting-
My opinion :
Cruise has had more entertaining movies than De Niro

De Niro had more talent in acting skills than Cruise.

But Tom Cruise>De Niro

This was my entire quote.


So don't quote only what you want to prove your case.

What I meant is Tom Cruise is a bigger star than De Niro.
tom cruise is a bigger star... but deniro is the better actor.

and so when the best actors lists are compiled he sits well above him and rightly so...

i can deal with people finding cruise more entertaining as that is personal taste but at the end of the day if you ask all those who prefer to watch cruise over deniro movies they will all most likely say " but Deniro is a greater actor, i just prefer/enjoy cruise movies" which is how it should also be in wrestling.

yes Hogan/austin/rock/Cena are the bigger stars and most people probably find him more entertaining than FLair/Bret/Undertaker/HBK but to rank them higher on the best wreslter lists is like putting CRuise/Smith/Sandler above Deniro/Pacino/Nicholson/ which obv doesnt happen.
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