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Old 10-05-2012, 03:12 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Default Re: WWE willl never get edgy again

The Attitude Era killed wrestling. It's so over-rated it's ridiculous. The AE fan boys (I'd argue a lot of them on the internet were barely born during the AE and are just 14 year olds who know it's cool to like Austin and Rock) look back with a nostalgic bubble, failing to remember that the WRESTLING MATCHES were for the most part AWFUL. Go back to the WWF in 1998/1999 and look at the actual WRESTLING that went on and for the most part it was terrible. They also had so many stupid gimmicks and angles that were edgy for the sake of being edgy. A lot of people look back and list the TLC matches as being amazing 5* matches. They were all glorified spot fests. They weren't believable at all, 80 percent of the time the guys in them were going for stupid ladder spots when they could have been grabbing the title belts - everyone loved it because they were basically watching a live version of Jackass.
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Old 10-05-2012, 03:20 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Default Re: WWE willl never get edgy again

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I'm going to have disagree because in my opinion Austin would be Punk if it wasn't for the over the top material.

It's like thinking that Punk could get to the same mass as Austin without the roids.
You could be right (as that Punk/Austin/JR video pointed out, we'll never know), but I feel that Punk's blowing a kiss to Vince was as brilliant and anti-authoritarian as any middle finger Austin ever threw. They just neutered that aspect of Punk, instead of letting it drive a saga like Austin/McMahon, and instead of giving him a Mr. McMahon, they gave him... Nash? Trips? Nash texting Nash? Del Rio?

See, I think there's a truth in saying WWE won't be edgy in terms of T&A and hardcore matches and whatnot anytime soon. But edginess comes in many forms. WWE just doesn't have as clear a vision as it did back then. Probably because your eyesight fades as you near the big seven-oh.
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Old 10-05-2012, 03:32 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Default Re: WWE willl never get edgy again

South Park stayed edgy for 15 years in the late 90s, I dont see why WWE cant.
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Old 10-05-2012, 03:35 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Default Re: WWE willl never get edgy again

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You could be right (as that Punk/Austin/JR video pointed out, we'll never know), but I feel that Punk's blowing a kiss to Vince was as brilliant and anti-authoritarian as any middle finger Austin ever threw. They just neutered that aspect of Punk, instead of letting it drive a saga like Austin/McMahon, and instead of giving him a Mr. McMahon, they gave him... Nash? Trips? Nash texting Nash? Del Rio?

See, I think there's a truth in saying WWE won't be edgy in terms of T&A and hardcore matches and whatnot anytime soon. But edginess comes in many forms. WWE just doesn't have as clear a vision as it did back then. Probably because your eyesight fades as you near the big seven-oh.
Here's the problem though. You're talking about 1 night. They tried to continue with the anti authority stuff with Punk and Triple H and it just came off as someone whining about a push. You have to have meat on the bones in regards to style. Substance he was definetily there, but style requires attitude and that's where he'd be significantly hampered by a PG product.

What exactly was Punk's anti authoritarian message? Was it we want ice cream bars because that's about the only thing I can remember outside of him wanting to be the top guy or anti Cena stuff.

I do agree they blew the angle though. I understand why they brought him back so quickly but they should have tried to have this angle peaking at Mania in effect rivalring Rock Cena. Timing is everything.

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Old 10-05-2012, 03:35 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Default Re: WWE willl never get edgy again

WWE will never be edgy thanks to Linda
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Old 10-05-2012, 03:35 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Default Re: WWE willl never get edgy again

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Originally Posted by new_year_new_start View Post
The Attitude Era killed wrestling. It's so over-rated it's ridiculous. The AE fan boys (I'd argue a lot of them on the internet were barely born during the AE and are just 14 year olds who know it's cool to like Austin and Rock) look back with a nostalgic bubble, failing to remember that the WRESTLING MATCHES were for the most part AWFUL. Go back to the WWF in 1998/1999 and look at the actual WRESTLING that went on and for the most part it was terrible. They also had so many stupid gimmicks and angles that were edgy for the sake of being edgy. A lot of people look back and list the TLC matches as being amazing 5* matches. They were all glorified spot fests. They weren't believable at all, 80 percent of the time the guys in them were going for stupid ladder spots when they could have been grabbing the title belts - everyone loved it because they were basically watching a live version of Jackass.
Well, you make a good point. I had the WWE Classics on Demand for a while, so I thought I'd revisit the beloved AE. All of those 1998 episodes of Raw bored the living shit out of me. The matches are terrible. I have to fast forward through them to get to anything remotely good or entertaining. Sure there is Rock and Austin, and they have their moments, but most of the time they're just doing the same song and dance. Same drama with McMahon. Same catchphrases. Same cussing. Same repetition just like today with Cena. Of course, not THAT boring and stale though. Outside of those two and whatever DX or Undertaker is doing, the rest of the show is as filler and crappy as most of what happens in today's Raw episodes.

I do agree that the Attitude Era is somewhat overrated. I'm no hater of that era, but I don't think it's so far superior to every other time period in the WWE. People act like unless the WWE goes back to the AE, it will never be good. Today's WWE puts on the much better matches. It's just the lack of anything interesting happening between the characters. That is where the weakness lies. The WWE doesn't have to create a new AE. No, they need to create something better. It doesn't have to be raunchy and edgy to be compelling.
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Old 10-05-2012, 03:52 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Default Re: WWE willl never get edgy again

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Originally Posted by GillbergReturns View Post
Here's the problem though. You're talking about 1 night. They tried to continue with the anti authority stuff with Punk and Triple H and it just came off as someone whining about a push. You have to have meat on the bones in regards to style. Substance he was definetily there, but style requires attitude and that's where he'd be significantly hampered by a PG product.

What exactly was Punk's anti authoritarian message? Was it we want ice cream bars because that's about the only thing I can remember outside of him wanting to be the top guy or anti Cena stuff.

I do agree they blew the angle though. I understand why they brought him back so quickly but they should have tried to have this angle peaking at Mania in effect rivalring Rock Cena. Timing is everything.
Triple H was just a guy doing his job. There was no reason for the audience to hate this guy they'd come to love over, what, 15 years? Here's this legend who's done nothing wrong, and Punk's being a jerk to him because... because... Because? Whereas Mr. McMahon was just a cunt. Of course we loved Austin - he was mercilessly attacking a cunt. Heroes are usually defined by their enemies, and in Punk's case, they couldn't have got it more wrong. In Austin's case, they couldn't have got it more right.

(They actually had a sliver of something when Punk and Ace were going at it around the Rumble (bitter old 2nd-rate wrestler now in a position of power makes life a misery for modern-day superstar) but they ended up sacrificing Ziggler to that, and then abandoning it in favour of putting Cena in there instead. Which is basically the perfect microcosm of WWE's messed up direction these days - if something big has gotta happen, Cena's gotta do it, even if it makes no sense. To the point of Sandow having to stop wearing pink trunks.)
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Old 10-05-2012, 04:04 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Default Re: WWE willl never get edgy again

I've never been, and never will be, a fan of setting fire to random objects around the ring and then tossing someone onto it, idiots jumping from great heights because it's the only attention-getting 'talent' they possess, degrading sexual content, stupidly dangerous moves and folks just generally acting er, ...edgy (though that's not really the term that comes to my mind) for no purpose. When I think of the current WWE, these are not the elements I feel it's lacking.

I think that my problems are partly based in a difference of opinion between what my idea of PG is and what the creative minds at WWE consider to fall under that designation. While I wouldn't have taken a child to an AE show, I have no problems with them being exposed to something a bit more mature than what Raw includes these days. Then there's my own selfish desire to be entertained by a product that has fewer restrictions so that nobody is going to complain about the odd slip into more mature territory.

I rather resent the way women and children are constantly mentioned as the new target audience at fault. First off, not all women consider pro wrestling childrens entertainment and, secondly, as I just said, not all women judge what's suitable for kids the same way. I'd happily take children to an entertaining show where there happens to be mild sexual content, for example, over a poorly planned, sanitized production that seems hellbent on 'improving' me, and them, by addressing important topics like, oh, I don't know, bullying maybe? I dislike lectures mixed into my entertainment. I'm not clueless or uneducated or disinterested in the plight of others but I don't look to wrestling shows for social betterment. Now, I have no problem with WWE and its employees taking part in community programs in fact, that's a good thing and to be encouraged - but when those activities are integrated too far into a show like Raw it lessens both, I find.

Thing is, I don't care all that much what WWE does from here on out. I would like to see changes toward something I'd enjoy watching more, but it's not like there aren't alternatives. I guess I'm just sad that the largest, most visible pro wrestling company worldwide is not at a creative peak, to be generous. But the biggest problems they're having are not necessarily rooted in PG-ness and so aren't really the topic of this thread.
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Old 10-05-2012, 04:18 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Default Re: WWE willl never get edgy again

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Originally Posted by Mister Hands View Post
Triple H was just a guy doing his job. There was no reason for the audience to hate this guy they'd come to love over, what, 15 years? Here's this legend who's done nothing wrong, and Punk's being a jerk to him because... because... Because? Whereas Mr. McMahon was just a cunt. Of course we loved Austin - he was mercilessly attacking a cunt. Heroes are usually defined by their enemies, and in Punk's case, they couldn't have got it more wrong. In Austin's case, they couldn't have got it more right.

(They actually had a sliver of something when Punk and Ace were going at it around the Rumble (bitter old 2nd-rate wrestler now in a position of power makes life a misery for modern-day superstar) but they ended up sacrificing Ziggler to that, and then abandoning it in favour of putting Cena in there instead. Which is basically the perfect microcosm of WWE's messed up direction these days - if something big has gotta happen, Cena's gotta do it, even if it makes no sense. To the point of Sandow having to stop wearing pink trunks.)
I definetily agree with you that in some regards they sacrificed Punk's push so they could continue with Triple H Taker at Mania. Triple H had no intentions of being Punk's Vince. Not that you can recreate Austin v Vince because you can't.

I definetily agree with you about the enemies line and that's exactly why I'm not a huge fan of Punk's long title reign. This was the perfect opportunity to build an adversary to Punk and later on Cena but they got nothing from it. They've barely pushed Punk along and created no one else in the process. You look back at the Attitude era and you have Rock Manking having an amazing feud meanwhile Austin and Vince/ Taker are occupying the Main Event.
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Old 10-05-2012, 04:38 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Default Re: WWE willl never get edgy again

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I definetily agree with you that in some regards they sacrificed Punk's push so they could continue with Triple H Taker at Mania. Triple H had no intentions of being Punk's Vince. Not that you can recreate Austin v Vince because you can't.

I definetily agree with you about the enemies line and that's exactly why I'm not a huge fan of Punk's long title reign. This was the perfect opportunity to build an adversary to Punk and later on Cena but they got nothing from it. They've barely pushed Punk along and created no one else in the process. You look back at the Attitude era and you have Rock Manking having an amazing feud meanwhile Austin and Vince/ Taker are occupying the Main Event.
I think all of this, from the confusion with Punk's storyline, through to not making any credible stars during his reign, and the lack of any bite to the product... it's all stemming from the same place, and I think it's a kind of petrified stagnation. They're so comfortable at the top, they've got no impetus to raise the bar, and even when they have the opportunity, they squander it (whether it be from incompetence, malice or whimsy, or just a lack of desire to break the status quo). Hopefully Raw's declining ratings will get their fingers out of their asses, because they're stacked with way more talent than they had during the AE. It's just talent that hasn't been showcased right, if at all.
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