Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread - Page 969 - Wrestling Forum : WWE, TNA, Debate League, Wrestling Videos, Women of Wrestling Forums
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Old 11-30-2012, 10:40 PM   #9681 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

I could see Jericho being alittle over-rated. I don't think that is a crazy statement, to be honest. And Jericho is one of my favorites of all time. When HBK was retired from 1998-2002, Jericho and Triple H became my favorite wrestlers in that 4 year period. So, I was/am a huge a fan of his. But looking back on it now, I can see him being alittle bit over-rated, to be honest. It also doesn't help that he was a main eventer in a time period where he had to compete with the likes of Austin, Rock, Triple H all in their prime.

On the same token, Cena isn't as bad as the hardcore IWC fan thinks he is. But at the same time, I can count on one hand the amount of great matches he's had now in his decade in the company and 5-6 years as a main eventer. I think the hate is so massive on the internet for him that it convinced some to say. "Hey, he's not that bad." And he isn't. But that doesn't make him a great in-ring performer, either. A decade strong in the company and still waiting for him to have his first great WM match, or carry someone that he is better than. Hasn't happened yet. And the fact that his character is stale may not be his fault, but it doesn't help, either. Guy needs some layers of depth to his character in the worst way.
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Old 11-30-2012, 10:45 PM   #9682 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

I like Michaels at his best a lot more, but at their worst Cena is probably better. I really hate some of 2000s Michaels and think Cena wipes the floor with him from 02-now. Then again I do hate the worst as well. Throw in 90s Michaels and it actually kinda gets to that 'tough, but IDK' for me. I'd probably use personal bias to give it to Shawn. Throw in the Rockers and I'd definitely, definitely give it to Shawn. The Rockers might be the peak of his career no matter how bat-shit that seem to the people who think WWE Michaels is the greatest of all time.

Really, I don't think Michaels has had THAT many singles matches better than Cena/Umaga RR07. I doubt he's had five.


EDIT- Cena was the better guy in the Michaels Raw match, BY FAAAAAAAR. And that's a great match.
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Old 11-30-2012, 10:47 PM   #9683 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Don't think I have a ***** Y2J match tbh, hell I might not have a **** 3/4 one for him. I have at least 1 ***** Cena match, and 2 for HBK
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Old 11-30-2012, 10:49 PM   #9684 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

All you can do is laugh, sometimes. Not only Jericho, but I think Guerrero is alittle overrated, too. Michaels and Hart wipe the floor with both of them, if I'm being completely honest. It's not even a contest.

Also, it's important to note that just because a particular guy doesn't have a ***** match (in someone's opinion) doesn't mean that they aren't a better worker than someone who does have a ***** match (once again, in someone's opinion). You have to take into account quality of oppenents. Takes two to tango.

Post 2002 mic work, maybe. But that's only taking into account one part of one of their careers, and the less creative part. Take into account in the 90s and well, there's nothing revolutionary John Cena has done on the mic..
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Old 11-30-2012, 10:50 PM   #9685 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by #PaulHeymanGuy View Post
Pretty sure Cactus is smiling as he reads that

The whole Shawn/Cena debate in my eyes is a little hard to gauge. I like Shawn's 90s run over Cena in general , but from 2002-2010 it gets a little cloudy for me. I think I'd have Cena over Shawn IF Shawn didn't have that series with The Undertaker that was leaps and bounds above anything else I've seen as a wrestling fan.

On a side note, I don't really attribute the greatness of the HBK-Taker matches to either of them , as I believe that they were just two workers who were MADE for each other. So it kind of works like this for me...

Post 2002 :

Shawn's Matches > Cena's Matches
Cena's Mic Work >>> Shawn's Mic Work
Cena's Performances IN his matches > Shawn's performances

VERY controversial (as I sit here and watch my HOF 2004 DVD)
Yeah, it's hard to rank the different levels via decades of their careers, but I can gauge fairly well. Seen just about all of Cena's matches and Shawn's important ones from his awesome mid-90's stretch.

Cena & Punk is what Shawn & Undertaker have. That magic chemistry. Granted Taker vs Shawn matches led to more "5 star" bouts, I stand by my point & your's about workers being MADE for each other.

It's always going to be vexing and a stretch to make these comparisons since someone out there will undoubtedly have their say on the matter. Mic work is a lock in favor for Cena. Performances, yeah, I'd nudge Cena too. Match quality. Probably correct in Shawn. It's hard to say overall since I got a lot from both running through my mind. Throughout their entire career span. Singles wise, only. If I were to include Shawn's Rockers stuff then that wouldn't be fair. That's where his best stuff is, imo. As I say that I immediately think of Shawn Michaels vs Jeff Jarrett from In Your House II: The Lumberjacks aka that PHENOMENAL Intercontinental Championship match, haha.

Sounds like a fun project to try and name our favorite matches from the workers in the NOC '10 six pack challenge. Top 5-10. Ok, maybe Wade doesn't have to be included since he's only been around for a few years + he isn't quite as liked by others (I'm a fan) Replace him with HBK and there we go.

EDIT ~ Oh sheesh. Bret Hart is nowhere near the league of Eddie Guerrero.
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Old 11-30-2012, 10:53 PM   #9686 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

That was a general statement, I wasn't saying that Cena/HBK are better because they have more ***** matches

And I always found post 90s Shawn's mic work besides the Hogan feud and some of 2006 DX(....I was 10) to be awful. I can't think of any good promo from him besides during those 3 time periods
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Old 11-30-2012, 10:54 PM   #9687 (permalink)
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I could see Jericho being alittle over-rated. I don't think that is a crazy statement, to be honest. And Jericho is one of my favorites of all time. When HBK was retired from 1998-2002, Jericho and Triple H became my favorite wrestlers in that 4 year period. So, I was/am a huge a fan of his. But looking back on it now, I can see him being alittle bit over-rated, to be honest. It also doesn't help that he was a main eventer in a time period where he had to compete with the likes of Austin, Rock, Triple H all in their prime.

On the same token, Cena isn't as bad as the hardcore IWC fan thinks he is. But at the same time, I can count on one hand the amount of great matches he's had now in his decade in the company and 5-6 years as a main eventer. I think the hate is so massive on the internet for him that it convinced some to say. "Hey, he's not that bad." And he isn't. But that doesn't make him a great in-ring performer, either. A decade strong in the company and still waiting for him to have his first great WM match, or carry someone that he is better than. Hasn't happened yet. And the fact that his character is stale may not be his fault, but it doesn't help, either. Guy needs some layers of depth to his character in the worst way.
Double post (EDIT- OT WAS GOING TO BE BUT I TOOK TOO LONG W/E), but who has Jericho carried that he is better than to a great match? I've thought for a while that if look at Jericho's best stuff it's him being outperformed every time. v Eddie Guerrero, the Rock, Chris Benoit, HHH, Rey Mysterio, re-watched the WMXX match and thought Christian was clearly better, etc. I would even rate him over probably the Rock and definitely HHH, but he wasn't the better guy in those matches.

He was the better guy in the Michaels matches but only one of those is very good anyway (GAB08). I'll give him that.

Cena was the better guy in some Umaga, Michaels, CM Punk, and Orton matche. He completely 100000% carried Khali and Lashley to probably each guys' best match, and those matches were two months apart. I'm not a big Cena fan or really even a Cena fan at all but the guy keeps the hits coming.
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Old 11-30-2012, 11:01 PM   #9688 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

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Double post (EDIT- OT WAS GOING TO BE BUT I TOOK TOO LONG W/E), but who has Jericho carried that he is better than to a great match? I've thought for a while that if look at Jericho's best stuff it's him being outperformed every time. v Eddie Guerrero, the Rock, Chris Benoit, HHH, Rey Mysterio, re-watched the WMXX match and thought Christian was clearly better, etc. I would even rate him over probably the Rock and definitely HHH, but he wasn't the better guy in those matches.

He was the better guy in the Michaels matches but only one of those is very good anyway (GAB08). I'll give him that.

Cena was the better guy in some Umaga, Michaels, CM Punk, and Orton matche. He completely 100000% carried Khali and Lashley to probably each guys' best match, and those matches were two months apart. I'm not a big Cena fan or really even a Cena fan at all but the guy keeps the hits coming.
Like I said, Jericho probably was alittle overrated. But do I think he was a terrific performer/worker? Absolutely. You can be over-rated by some and still be considered good. The HBK/Jericho Ladder match was great, too. Almost forgot about that one, because I took a break from wrestling in in parts of 2008.
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Old 11-30-2012, 11:05 PM   #9689 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

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Don't think I have a ***** Y2J match tbh, hell I might not have a **** 3/4 one for him. I have at least 1 ***** Cena match, and 2 for HBK
Jericho vs Michaels Ladder from No Mercy 2008 gets the full 5 from myself. Your theory made me question it too for a split second then that popped up.
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Old 11-30-2012, 11:07 PM   #9690 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

I have that at **** 1/2 (tied with vs Eddie FB97 as his best match), but I really need to give it a second watch.
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