Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread - Page 883 - Wrestling Forum : WWE, TNA, Debate League, Wrestling Videos, Women of Wrestling Forums
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Old 11-15-2012, 05:39 AM   #8821 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

If only One Night Only was that good. Especially when they're the same type of match only with a different outcome.
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Old 11-15-2012, 06:25 AM   #8822 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Hailsabin View Post
Summerslam 1997 - WWF Championship:
The Undertaker(c) vs Bret Hart ~ **3/4

One Night Only - WWF Championship:
Bret Hart(c) vs The Undertaker ~ **3/4


These guys really don't know how to work that well against each other. Their matches go WAY too long, Bret works on Taker's legs for the vast majority only for it to never come back into play down the line, and things never really pick up during the matches. It's probably my biggest disappointment with two great, popular workers duking it out. Undertaker feeds off of Shawn much better. And Austin for Hart. Matches like this are why I can see some people had flaws with Hart's offense. Never been crazy about these matches.
I agree. Maybe the ratings are a little too harsh though, I don't know.

But that's one thing that always bothered me in any Bret match. He works on the leg of his opponent for the whole match and it never has anything to do with the finish.

When has Bret ever won a big match because of his leg work earlier in the match? He pinned Piper after countering the sleeper, he pinned Bigelow with the victory roll, he pinned Yoko after he fell off the top rope, he beat Diesel via small package, he beat Taker after HBKs chair shot, he beat Goldberg via screwjob. None of that has anything to do with working on their legs.

Maybe his matches with Flair and Benoit count. He beat them with a sharpshooter but I'm not sure whether or not he worked their legs that much since he was the babyface and sold for most of the match..

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Old 11-15-2012, 06:31 AM   #8823 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

I don't think they're harsh. I've gone harsh on a rating or two before. Those matches were honestly "solid" at best. Which considering who was involved and the length they went, is a pretty weak curve.

I don't recall too much leg work vs Bigelow or Piper. Bammer was pretty dominate vs Bret @ KOTR. I think the work vs Diesel was there. At least at Survivor Series. That match was so grueling and had tons of ups & downs that I think even if he did abandon it, it was forgivable. I know I considering that one to be GREAT.

The leg work vs Taker stood out to me simply because he only did it to ground him. That's it. Wasn't much of a prelude to the sharpshooter as it was a way to wear down the dead man and eat up a lot of time. Beating down the leg is counterproductive anyways. Sure, it damages the opponent, but the sharpshooter is a move that puts torque on the back more than it really demolishes the legs, minus the bind he puts them in. It always felt like he should use his backbreakers and russian leg sweeps, etc to work over the back to the point of when the sharpshooter was locked in, the opponent had no power left to even attempt to count/reach the ropes.
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Old 11-15-2012, 06:37 AM   #8824 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

HBK's entrance is the best thing about the match.
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Old 11-15-2012, 06:50 AM   #8825 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Leg (or limb in general) work doesn't really ALWAYS have to pay off, I think. Sometimes Wrestler A will work Wrestler B's leg and Wrestler B can find ways to get around it and win without any pay off to the leg work. The leg work is sort of there for filler, yeah, but it's fun and effective filler to me. Bret would work the leg for some help with the sharpshooter (or in Diesel/Bigelow/any tall guy or fatasses case- to keep them off of their feet). He may not win with the Sharpshooter, but if we're supposed to take our delusional little views that wrestling is a real fight at any point, Bret working the leg-> going for the sharpshooter-> not winning with it, still makes sense. He tried to work the leg to wear his opponent down to win the match, but failed.

I don't even remember Bret working the leg that much anyway.
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Old 11-15-2012, 06:54 AM   #8826 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

He did against Taker. That's the only reference I brought up Bret's leg work to.

I'm not one to complain about that, but when it felts like OBVIOUS filler for a match, then I'm like "eh". Especially when the limb work isn't even interesting or the selling doesn't even really come back into play. I can't help but think of guys like Regal, Finlay, Benoit when it comes to work like that. From the points of giving the attack and selling. Oh, and Guerrero too. Immediately his debut match on Nitro vs Benoit comes to mind with this topic. Interesting arm work, quality selling, and it did come back into play for the finish.
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Old 11-15-2012, 07:02 AM   #8827 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Well yeah if the leg work is outright boring then I completely understand not wanting it.
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Old 11-15-2012, 07:12 AM   #8828 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Which is exactly my opinion on it with those two matches.
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Old 11-15-2012, 09:07 AM   #8829 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

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I don't even remember Bret working the leg that much anyway.
With Bret there were really only two ways he would work a match. When he wrestled against a babyface, he worked on their legs. When he was the face he sold a leg injury for most of the match.

There are few exceptions like his match against Piper which had neither. That's one of the reasons why I enjoy this match so much. It told a great story without anything to just stretch out the match length.

Working on the leg is something a babyface shouldn't do. The live crowd does not like seeing that. When he faced Diesel and Taker, even when he was the babyface, he was booed for this tactic.

On the other hand, his match against Austin absolutely needed Bret working on Austins knee. Austin just returned from a knee injury and Bret using a chair and everything to "cripple" the guy made the match work so well and helped the double turn get over with the crowd.
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Old 11-15-2012, 09:58 AM   #8830 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

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Leg (or limb in general) work doesn't really ALWAYS have to pay off, I think. Sometimes Wrestler A will work Wrestler B's leg and Wrestler B can find ways to get around it and win without any pay off to the leg work. The leg work is sort of there for filler, yeah, but it's fun and effective filler to me. Bret would work the leg for some help with the sharpshooter (or in Diesel/Bigelow/any tall guy or fatasses case- to keep them off of their feet). He may not win with the Sharpshooter, but if we're supposed to take our delusional little views that wrestling is a real fight at any point, Bret working the leg-> going for the sharpshooter-> not winning with it, still makes sense. He tried to work the leg to wear his opponent down to win the match, but failed.
I agree with this. I mean its great when the body of the match plays into the finish, not only because it feels like everything prior to it had purpose and meaning, but also because it comes off as smart and adds rhythm and flow to the match.

As you said though, the opponent may be able to work around the limbwork and as long as the limbwork is sold enough to convey some form of drama in that the opponent is noticeably struggling then I have no problems with the match shifting away from it. A good example might be the Ohtani vs El Samurai NJPW match. Ohtani makes the leg his focus but as the match progresses he attempts to use his signature offence but alters it towards the leg, e.g the springboard dropkick is directed to the leg rather than the back/upper body as it usually is. Ohtani also uses the leg as a point of escape and as a way to setup a signature move, such as kicking the leg and then immediately following up with the bridging full nelson suplex.

So long as the limbwork is either sold well enough or at least presented in a way that its not forgotten about and therefore rendered useless, it doesn't necessarily have to pay off in the finish. Though of course when it does it can really add to the overall quality of the match, but that's the case with any smartly structured match.
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