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Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

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#1 ·
#16,781 ·
So I finally watched a match that I always stayed away from because apparently it was so horribly bad. The Almighty One himself, Dave Meltzer gave it **3/4. And if Dave Meltzer says it's bad, then you know it's bad.

The match I'm talking about is Triple H vs Batista at Wrestlemania 21. What are some of you guys opinions on it? Me personally, it doesn;t get the praise it deserve. How the hell could the Observer give this **3/4? And well, if the Observer says it's **3/4 then obviously its subscribers says it as well. I've always seen a lot of shit for this match but after watching it, I can't see how this match could possibly be considered bad.

This match is freaking good if you ask me. Some good control segments by the game, Batista makes a nice comeback. A brilliantly done false finish as well if you ask me. The part where HHH hits Batista with the title, if you didn't known the results before hand, it's very possible to believe that would have been the finish. The fans booing definitely signifies that they all thought HHH was gonna win by using dirty tactics.

Man, screw the haters. I freaking liked this match. It gets ***3/4 from me.
 
#16,782 ·
Poor Yeah1993, I know you're trying to summon vivalabrave back to this place. But there are far better ways :p .

On topic, isn't there a Kane vs Chavo match that usually gets brought up as quite good? Backlash maybe?

On topic 2: was that Koslov/Festus sub 5 minute Smackdown encounter from 2008? If so i'mma go ahead and give that my TV MOTY for 08. Wrestling needs more big guys beating the everloving dogpiss out of each other.
God damn I love you. Here I thought I was the only guy (and my buddy who watched that Smackdown with me) who thought that match was too damn awesome on account of it being a complete slugfest.

Triple H vs Batista from WrestleMania 21 - **. Blah.

Dream matches? Fuck I got giddy just thinking about some and reading some of the selections. I'll go to a prior conversation I had with WOOLCOCK and have to say I want this gem to happen: Necro Butcher vs Jerry Lawler - circa MEMPHIS days. Or any territory really. It would have to involve a time machine, but of course this is all hypothetical so screw it. If I got this program, I think the level of marking would reach a whole new high. Necro could have been the best beast up and down the territories.
 
#16,784 ·
Lesnar on Smackdown - August 2002:

Brock Lesnar Vs Mark Henry - SD 01/08/2002

The Next Big Thing, BROOOOOOCCCKKKK LESSSSSSSNAAAR Vs The World's Strongest Man Mark Henry. EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Henry is fresh off his win at the first Arnold Strongman contest (which btw, I'm 99% positive was a fix so Henry could win and WWE would promote the shit out of it to help it get off the ground), and Lesnar is still the young, impressively powerful rookie looking to dominate anyone.

I'd LOVE to see this happen today. Hall of Pain Henry Vs MMA Lesnar. Fuck.

But 2002 version was still a ton of fucking fun. Henry is the only guy up to this point that can stand toe to toe with Lesnar and even be the STRONGER of the two, but Lesnar has the amateur wrestling background and is super fast, so he can use his power in a different way to take down Henry.

Holy shit, delayed vertical suplex on Lesnar! Awesome to see someone be able to manhandle Lesnar, and it makes it all the more special when Lesnar hits an overhead belly to belly, and F5, and gets the win. Short but oh so sweet.

**

Brock Lesnar Vs Hulk Hogan - SD 08/08/2002

Not the greatest match, but a ton of fun for sure. Crowd are insane for Hogan. Love how they built up Hogan as being almost the ultimate challenge for Lesnar at this point in his career. Heyman on the outside yelling to Brock "He's different! He's Hulk Hogan, he's DIFFERENT!" while Lesnar is playing with Hulk like he did with everyone else at the time, being too inexperienced to truly understand who he's in the ring with. Hogan did his usual schtick; no selling stuff but not anything major that pissed you off, just in the way that is part of his gimmick. He even has Brock reeling and even begging him off, the first time we'd seen this kind of thing from Lesnar. And then Bock got it. He understood who he was in the ring with. It started with the ledgrop, and once Brock kicked out, he evolved. He went after Hulk like a man possessed. No more messing about. F-5. Busted Hogan wide open. And then locked in the bear hug and beat Hogan in perhaps THE most decisive way that Hogan has ever been beaten in. Perfect build up match to SS imo. Heyman was proclaiming Lesnar to be the next big thing. He was young, athletic, powerful. He had EVERYTHING but experience, but week after week we'd see him get better and better, and in this match its like he went from a rookie to a veteran; that's how much he learnt. He wasn't in the ring with your average guy. No more Hardy Boys (just popular team at the time). No Rikishi. No Booker T. No RVD. He was in the ring with one of THE stars. One of THE legends. He went into the match inexperienced. He made mistakes. Then he LEARNT. He adapted. He evolved. He grew. And he took OUT Hulk Hogan, and was finally ready for The Rock and the WWE Title at SummerSlam. Great stuff here, telling a pretty magnificent story imo. And Hogan taking a fucking POWERBOMB (albeit out of the corner, but all that did was allow Hogan to not have to try and flip himself up onto Brock's shoulders lol)? Awesome lol.

***3/4

Brock Lesnar Vs Rikishi - SD 15/08/2002

Rikishi might not be as strong as Henry, but he's a big bastard so seeing Lesnar dominate him couldn't be anything less than fun!

Nice callback spot to the Henry match though (doubt it was intentional, but I like to think so :) ). Lesnar charges into Rikishi, and like Henry, he doesn't move. Do Rikishi eggs on Lesnar to try again, only Lesnar goes for a clothesline instead, which levelled Henry. Rikishi though sees it coming and ducks, taking down Lesnar with a clothesline of his own :).

Some nice arm work for the 30 seconds it takes place, and nice selling from Rikishi too. BELLY TO BELLY OVERHEAD. I mark for that move every time. BEARHUG. Watching Bossman matches at the RR killed the Bearhug for me, but LESNAR using it is still great. He BEAT HOGAN with it the week before, so its credible as fuck.

Great little comeback from Rikishi, including a stinkface to Heyman who sells it amazingly, before Lesnar breaks him in half with an F5 for the win. Super fun.

**1/2

Brock Lesnar Vs Matt Hardy - SD 29/08/2002

Lesnar won the Undisputed title at SummerSlam days earlier, and now he's exclusive to SD. Hardy went to Stephanie and asked for a match with Lesnar. Guess he was out of his mind back in 02 as well? :p

Lol, Lesnar just dumps Hardy over the ropes when he's posing during his entrance. Hardy tries, but Lesnar is on a whole other level and just mauls him. MAULS HIM. And I love every second of it. Does that make me a bad person? :)

Lesnar catching Hardy from a crossbody from the top rope to the OUTSIDE was amazing. They make it seem like someone is the strongest person everaz when they do the same thing, but in the ring rather than outside. Lesnar had to catch Matt falling from like an extra 3 feet. Awesome. Another fun match from Lesnar. I think the "Lesnar doesn't have a bad match" saying might be right. Except for RR Vs Holly and WM Vs Goldberg :p.

**
 
#16,786 ·
God damn I love you. Here I thought I was the only guy (and my buddy who watched that Smackdown with me) who thought that match was too damn awesome on account of it being a complete slugfest.

Dream matches? Fuck I got giddy just thinking about some and reading some of the selections. I'll go to a prior conversation I had with WOOLCOCK and have to say I want this gem to happen: Necro Butcher vs Jerry Lawler - circa MEMPHIS days. Or any territory really. It would have to involve a time machine, but of course this is all hypothetical so screw it. If I got this program, I think the level of marking would reach a whole new high. Necro could have been the best beast up and down the territories.
:eek: .

Yup, adored it. Nothing too serious, short and sweet. Two big lumps potatoing each other for our pleasure.

Oh man, overlooked Necro vs Lawler. Necro vs Takayama also strikes me as a potential blossom pairing. Basically anyone who's a big lump like Joe who can kick ten bells out of nutty Necro should be a recipe for greatness. Oh man, Hashimoto vs Necro is screaming out right about now. Hashimoto kicking the crap out of Necro in ways even Naoya Ogawa wasn't subjected to and Necro throwing hobo esque punches square in the snout of Hashimoto, oh the thoughts.
 
#16,787 ·
Only part of the match I really find appealing was how the fans responded to Batista's thumbs down. Great camera shot capturing what appeared to be every fan doing it with him.

It's not much of anything though. Nor is the Backlash match. That's what blows me away so much about their Hell in a Cell at Vengeance. Two incredibly average matches followed by one of my personal favorite blow offs in the whole of wrestling. There was something in the air that night.

:eek: .

Yup, adored it. Nothing too serious, short and sweet. Two big lumps potatoing each other for our pleasure.

Oh man, overlooked Necro vs Lawler. Necro vs Takayama also strikes me as a potential blossom pairing. Basically anyone who's a big lump like Joe who can kick ten bells out of nutty Necro should be a recipe for greatness. Oh man, Hashimoto vs Necro is screaming out right about now. Hashimoto kicking the crap out of Necro in ways even Naoya Ogawa wasn't subjected to and Necro throwing hobo esque punches square in the snout of Hashimoto, oh the thoughts.
If Koslov was stuck doing that, he might have faired better during his tenure. Festus/Gallows/D.O.C. speaks for himself. Always liked the guy. More walloping in matches please.

If I were to go into the realm of Japanese stars to go toe to toe with Necro then wow. I did get a dream match for me in Necro vs Morishima back in 2008. Think it was good, but can't remember how much I loved it tbhayley. I think I was one of the few who marked for it. Necro vs Big Tak. Jesus christ the thought of it. Beauty is, that one could still happen. Hashimoto would have been bliss too. Always makes me laugh how Hashimoto and Ogawa had their bouts, then when HUSTLE came around their alliance was well in tact. Speaking of HUSTLE - Necro vs KAWADA. It's a drop in the bucket here. Kawada can make anything great.

I can help but stem back to the Necro in territory days mentality. I see him teaming (or even feuding) vs Terry Funk at the time. Those two wild men as a team. Sounds brilliant to me. What if Funk had Necro as his running buddy during the '89 program vs Flair? When Flair got the upper hand at GAB, Necro could have debuted and DESTROYED Flair. I know the way things ended with Muta and subsequently leading in with Sting joining the Horsemen was good. I can't help but get the juices flowing in knowing Flair's uphill struggle against Gary Hart's wicked alliance would have been very stellar if Necro was in the mix.
 
#16,788 ·
Batista/HHH WM21 gets **, BL match gets **3/4. Nothing that good from Batista/HHH until the Cell match, which ended up being spectacular. But to the observer giving it **3/4, they were being too generous. :p
 
#16,789 ·
Batista/HHH WM - **3/4. Its ok and nothing more.
Batista/HHH BL - ***1/4. This was going awesome... until Batista completely ignored the fact his back was worked over the entire match and no sold the shit out of it in favour of hitting big power moves and his finisher at the end.
Batista/HHH VG - ****1/2. Awesomesauce.

Did they ever have a TV match or anything after this?
 
#16,790 ·
If Koslov was stuck doing that, he might have faired better during his tenure. Festus/Gallows/D.O.C. speaks for himself. Always liked the guy. More walloping in matches please.

If I were to go into the realm of Japanese stars to go toe to toe with Necro then wow. I did get a dream match for me in Necro vs Morishima back in 2008. Think it was good, but can't remember how much I loved it tbhayley. I think I was one of the few who marked for it. Necro vs Big Tak. Jesus christ the thought of it. Beauty is, that one could still happen. Hashimoto would have been bliss too. Always makes me laugh how Hashimoto and Ogawa had their bouts, then when HUSTLE came around their alliance was well in tact. Speaking of HUSTLE - Necro vs KAWADA. It's a drop in the bucket here. Kawada can make anything great.

I can help but stem back to the Necro in territory days mentality. I see him teaming (or even feuding) vs Terry Funk at the time. Those two wild men as a team. Sounds brilliant to me. What if Funk had Necro as his running buddy during the '89 program vs Flair? When Flair got the upper hand at GAB, Necro could have debuted and DESTROYED Flair. I know the way things ended with Muta and subsequently leading in with Sting joining the Horsemen was good. I can't help but get the juices flowing in knowing Flair's uphill struggle against Gary Hart's wicked alliance would have been very stellar if Necro was in the mix.
Yeah sad to see he had the potential for those sorts of violent spurts and was instead saddled with padding out his offence for longer matches. An example that sometime straying from the cliche formula can be to the benefit of a worker. Gallows is tremendous, people who watch his work should notice that by know. Overlooked brawler and big man.

Yeah Necro is a guy who realistically could work with anyone. Lunatic bumper, no regard for his well being and has that Foley desire to eat as many stiff strikes as the body can withstand. Hashimoto and Takayama have the height and weight advantage to make for a great underdog dynamic with Necro being a smaller than his adversaries. Sort of like a Dustin Rhodes setting where he's big enough to cause some damage but still has the size difference to look overmatched and helpless. Don't even want to consider the beating Necro would take in the ring against either of them. Both look horrificly violent even when they're likely lessening the actual damage, put that against someone like Necro who does not give a fuck and I imagine the lawyers and doctors would be taking substantial overtime.

Necro in the territory days would have been something. Could have worked as the hired mercenery in a long running angle, such as being payed by a Jimmy Hart to take out Lawler. Could have been almost Abdullah like in roaming from territory to territory, staying long enough to create a buzz and lasting impression whilst his stay was short enough to feel fresh and with room to return. Imagine him working Lawler, Dundee, Duggan, Murdoch, Dibiase, Reed, Sawyer, Morton, Valentine, Arn, Magnum etc. Just can't even comprehend what we could have gotten with his style in those grungy and autentic settings.
 
#16,791 ·
Batista/HHH WM - **3/4. Its ok and nothing more.
Batista/HHH BL - ***1/4. This was going awesome... until Batista completely ignored the fact his back was worked over the entire match and no sold the shit out of it in favour of hitting big power moves and his finisher at the end.
Batista/HHH VG - ****1/2. Awesomesauce.

Did they ever have a TV match or anything after this?
I remember one Raw they were going to have a match, but it ended up getting switched for a tag match or something. They had an in-ring interaction at some point after Batista turned heel with HHH getting the upperhand on him, but besides that, nothing else happened after their feud ended with them.
 
#16,792 ·
Yeah sad to see he had the potential for those sorts of violent spurts and was instead saddled with padding out his offence for longer matches. An example that sometime straying from the cliche formula can be to the benefit of a worker. Gallows is tremendous, people who watch his work should notice that by know. Overlooked brawler and big man.

Yeah Necro is a guy who realistically could work with anyone. Lunatic bumper, no regard for his well being and has that Foley desire to eat as many stiff strikes as the body can withstand. Hashimoto and Takayama have the height and weight advantage to make for a great underdog dynamic with Necro being a smaller than his adversaries. Sort of like a Dustin Rhodes setting where he's big enough to cause some damage but still has the size difference to look overmatched and helpless. Don't even want to consider the beating Necro would take in the ring against either of them. Both look horrificly violent even when they're likely lessening the actual damage, put that against someone like Necro who does not give a fuck and I imagine the lawyers and doctors would be taking substantial overtime.

Necro in the territory days would have been something. Could have worked as the hired mercenery in a long running angle, such as being payed by a Jimmy Hart to take out Lawler. Could have been almost Abdullah like in roaming from territory to territory, staying long enough to create a buzz and lasting impression whilst his stay was short enough to feel fresh and with room to return. Imagine him working Lawler, Dundee, Duggan, Murdoch, Dibiase, Reed, Sawyer, Morton, Valentine, Arn, Magnum etc. Just can't even comprehend what we could have gotten with his style in those grungy and autentic settings.
Case and point vs Triple H at Survivor Series 2008. It killed his career b/c of hos abysmal it was. WWE seems to have Ryback down well. Don't let him work too many lengthy bouts and he'll be ok. I think that's why I have no disdain for the guy. Plus, he's a Tough Enough kid. So, it's pretty cool to see his successes, imo.

I can literally picture those matches playing out. Speaks volumes to how natural of a fit it is to have Necro against those guys. I'll start a petition to have Takayama back in NJPW and for them to sign Necro to a one or two night contract and work a show at the end of this year to set up a match vs Tak come Wrestle Kingdom VIII. It could happen. :eek:

See, this is both a wonderful bit of fantasy booking and also a bit of a tug on my heartstrings b/c I'll know these matches and moments will forever be a fragment of my dreams. It's almost making me want to start up a Be The Booker just to make the most fantasy driven bouts actually occur. I have enough on my plate as it is! I'm a guy with a wild imagination. All I need is something to spark my favorite hobby and I'm off to the races. Necro vs Valentine in a bloody war. My stars - the genius of it. I can see Valentine wearing the crimson mask yelling out obscenities at Necro in the mist of the war. Gives me chills.
 
#16,793 ·
I really wanna check out Kozlov/HHH from SVS 08 just to see it for myself. But I'm running the risk of enduring another JBL/Batista GAB 05 where the match is not laughably bad (like Taker/HHH KOTR), but BORING.

Batista/HHH WM - **3/4. Its ok and nothing more.
Batista/HHH BL - ***1/4. This was going awesome... until Batista completely ignored the fact his back was worked over the entire match and no sold the shit out of it in favour of hitting big power moves and his finisher at the end.
Batista/HHH VG - ****1/2. Awesomesauce.

Did they ever have a TV match or anything after this?
Bump the first and last by a quarter and I'm fully with you on all of them.

I really wonder how their cell match ended up being so much better than the first two. The cell is not always a solution to a feud that's boring (see HHH/HBK) but in this case, HIAC has made it easier to look back fondly at the feud and overlook the two first matches which were average.
 
#16,795 ·
I really wanna check out Kozlov/HHH from SVS 08 just to see it for myself. But I'm running the risk of enduring another JBL/Batista GAB 05 where the match is not laughably bad (like Taker/HHH KOTR), but BORING.
Oh, it is incredibly boring, and one of the worst matches of all time imo, maybe even the worst for me. I couldn't sit through more than a minute of that shit again. At least Taker/Bossman had Bearer on the outside, Koslov/HHH does nothing interesting or good, and the worst part is, you could see both men trying.

The only saving grace is the fact Edge came in and took the title, which isn't much of anything if you aren't a fan of Edge... and if you're someone who hates Edge... well... things just go from abysmal to pleasekillmenowthisistooawful.
 
#16,799 ·
I have a craving to see BITW heel punk vs. 86-87 Barry Windham. Windham as the incredibly talented youngster, with punk having this 400 plus day long championship reign in a PPV match. Could be reminiscent of the Flair Windham matches.

Brock/Bryan is my dream match of purely wwe workers today, I want this to happen so badly, Bryan's the perfect opponent for lesnar to face.

Oh and Takayama/Mysterio and Takayama/Bryan would be insane, TAKAYAMA KNEE TO MYSTERIO OFF THE TOP ROPE :mark: :mark: :mark:

Eddie/Taker is another one of those matches we should have gotten but never did.
 
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