Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread - Page 821 - Wrestling Forum : WWE, TNA, Debate League, Wrestling Videos, Women of Wrestling Forums
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Old 10-31-2012, 06:51 PM   #8201 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Hailsabin View Post
Terrible decision.

(Batista has good matches behind him, but meh. heel Batista circa '09-10 or gtfo)



You mean competent booking for midcard guys to flourish into eventual stars? At this stage? I'd love for you to be correct, but that's probably not gonna happen.

Oh yeah. Taker's bumps from the RKO's are odd. He always jumps when taking them. Never know why.
Yup, the current guys don't have some of the experienced talents Orton had the privilege to work with, but WWE is just in this souless circle of repeated matches every week that it makes it hard to get invested in anyone. I like the idea of guys trading wins and losses when in a big feud, especially in a more pure wrestling feud where they establish both men as foils for the other..but Barrett and Orton having 3 matches in the space of a week and a bit and trading wins really elevates no-one. Barrett isn't a guy I consider worth a whole lot, but it seems pointless to have him beat Orton and then have a rematch on Raw in a throwaway match and have him eat the pin. Any momentum he gets is gone and what's worse is if they decide to have them feud after the Del Rio/Orton program, you just know the matches and 'feud' will be the same as it has been this past week: a bunch of matches with very litte in the way of creative promos or angles to really sell the feud beyond the wrestling.

Plus they actually seemed to have faith in Orton. He was consistently presented in big feuds/angles time after time and was given sufficient time to hone his character before being elevated up the card. These days so many guys are fighting for TV time and the minute they finally get some exposure they're back being relegated to Superstars or jobbing the next week.
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Old 10-31-2012, 07:00 PM   #8202 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

That's the clear problem with the company. I rolled my eyes when I saw Orton vs Barrett was happening again on RAW this week. Literally said "oh, Randy has to get his win back." Look what happened. He did. Now Orton is on his way to the Elmination tag and Barrett has...nothing. Where is the progression? I know Justin Gabriel only beat Cesaro to get the random PPV championship match, but why not work with that? He beat a champion CLEAN. Then what happens after the PPV, he faces Alberto Del Rio in the same slot that ADR is stuck on RAW every week only to job. Progression negated. Not to mention a guy like Zack Ryder. Who is still over with the crowd if you can believe that. Yet he's regulated to jobbing and being second fiddle in a mediocre tag team with Santino fuckin Marella of all people.

I realize the roster is pretty young overall. In terms of both age and name power, but damn. Lets try and get something cooking again. Everything seems to reset once the week is through. Instead of giving Kofi his 10th jobber championship reign how about trying someone new. Simply a thought, WWE. Now I know Ryback has gotten over in a big way, although he only faces the SAME people too. (JTG squash on RAW. why) So while he's rising, his progression isn't moving fast either. Pardon beating Miz x2 & Dolph the rest of his wins mean nothing. People like to compare him to Goldberg only by this time Goldberg had already moved up to semi-credible workers on a weekly basis. Ryback is still squashing jobbers while going after the top heel in Punk. Something is missing there.
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Old 10-31-2012, 07:08 PM   #8203 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Oliver-94 View Post
The only thing that I disliked about Orton in 2004 was his face turn. At first, it was understandable considering Evolution's break up but I never liked his face character. He is just one of those guys that is better suited as a heel (like Edge or CM Punk). Other than that, Orton was one of the best things on RAW 2004. His promos, IC title run and character (the Legend Killer) were all entertaining. It's a shame he never got a match with the Rock though.
It's not too late now to have The Rock/Orton one on one. If there's anyone The Rock should work with from the full-time roster, it's Orton. At least after WM29 for SummerSlam. There were rumors that this year's SS would have Orton vs Lesnar but for whatever reason (and obviously the suspension afterward), that was dropped and we may not even get this match.

And I've enjoyed his original face run. He's obviously a better heel but as a face, he's nowhere nearly as terrible as made out to be. At least not in his pretty boy stage back then. Now, I agree that he's a boring face with this whole "Viper" thing.

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Originally Posted by Segunda Caida View Post
Never understood the hatred Pyro and others have for Orton's consistent push. They talk about him being 'forced' down the viewer's throat, when if anything he just had a really well booked long term push where he was put in prominent angles with established talent and allowed to blossom.
I personally don't take anything they say seriously. They are bitching about Orton being "shoved down throats for 10 years until he was accepted" then are quick to whine about how WWE are impatient and drop the ball with somebody just because they fail to HIT with the first opportunity they get. Orton is one of the best handled talents in the last decade. The way his career has reached this point has been done smoothly with a lot of memorable feuds and matches to look back at fondly. Sucks that he's floating around with nothing to do now, though. Just hope they turn him heel and give him the well-deserved dominant booking. Would really love if The Rock took on him at SummerSlam next year. Will add to his impressive list of SS opponents too which includes Hogan, Benoit, Cena, Undertaker and if you count the chamber match, also HBK, HHH, Goldberg and Jericho.
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Old 10-31-2012, 07:11 PM   #8204 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Orton needs a fresh change. That's what his problem is right now.

and his attitude. Hope that's back in check. That's why he's floating around away from the World/WWE championship. At least he beat Del Rio @ HIAC. Was nice to root for him again.
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Old 10-31-2012, 07:13 PM   #8205 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Hailsabin View Post
That's the clear problem with the company. I rolled my eyes when I saw Orton vs Barrett was happening again on RAW this week. Literally said "oh, Randy has to get his win back." Look what happened. He did. Now Orton is on his way to the Elmination tag and Barrett has...nothing. Where is the progression? I know Justin Gabriel only beat Cesaro to get the random PPV championship match, but why not work with that? He beat a champion CLEAN. Then what happens after the PPV, he faces Alberto Del Rio in the same slot that ADR is stuck on RAW every week only to job. Progression negated. Not to mention a guy like Zack Ryder. Who is still over with the crowd if you can believe that. Yet he's regulated to jobbing and being second fiddle in a mediocre tag team with Santino fuckin Marella of all people.

I realize the roster is pretty young overall. In terms of both age and name power, but damn. Lets try and get something cooking again. Everything seems to reset once the week is through. Instead of giving Kofi his 10th jobber championship reign how about trying someone new. Simply a thought, WWE. Now I know Ryback has gotten over in a big way, although he only faces the SAME people too. (JTG squash on RAW. why) So while he's rising, his progression isn't moving fast either. Pardon beating Miz x2 & Dolph the rest of his wins mean nothing. People like to compare him to Goldberg only by this time Goldberg had already moved up to semi-credible workers on a weekly basis. Ryback is still squashing jobbers while going after the top heel in Punk. Something is missing there.
Yup. WWE still produces an abundance of good-great matches over the course of a year (far more than TNA, though I have no idea how many feel the same way, but I loathe the TNA style of wrestling), but the entire product on a week to week basis is just so stale and stuck in a sense of playing safe. I like the idea of making more angles/feuds heavily relient on the wrestling aspect and trying to make it important to be seen as a better wrestler than your opponent instead of day time soap opera esque Russo plots for feuds...but the likes of the NWA managed to create a product which featured their wrestling as a priority whilst still placing an impotus on the characters and storylines. WWE really should aim to be more like WCW circa 1992 if they're going for a more 'wrestling orientated product'. Keep the wrestling aspect central and keep characters more realistic and relatable instead of overly cartoonish, but still look to book certain feuds in a more grander and differential aspect than others: e.g have Orton/Del Rio be quite violent as a fued, whereas someone like Cesaro can have more wrestling based storylines revolving around building up a legitimate contender to dethrone him.

Every feud feels the same in the way its presented. Wrestler A does commentary as Wrestler B (his feud opponent) wrestles Wrestler C. Wrestler A either a) interferes to force a DQ, b) interferes to cause a loss only to fail and be dumped out of the ring, c) interferes and succeeds in causing Wrestler B to lose or d) just does commentary and then has a post match stardown with Wrestler B.

Then you'll have a standard promo with the babyface being overly comical and being force fed horrendously cheesy lines that remove any sense of emotion and realism in the feud, whislt the heel rattles off generic material about being better. Everything just seems to be in a constant loop instead of trying new angles and different characters and pushing different feuds in different directions. They're doing a better job at generally protecting their champions, but the likes of Cesaro desperately not only need credible feuds, but also need creative to start developing and booking fresh contenders. Whilst Cesaro feuds with Truth they should be trying to build the likes of Kidd, Tatsu, Gabriel, Ryder or some other lowcard babyface as a viable contender to challenge Cesaro when he's finished his current program, instead of just randomly putting Cesaro with Kidd after not seeing him for a month and expecting people to care and be willing to pay money to see them wrestle.
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Old 10-31-2012, 07:37 PM   #8206 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Segunda Caida View Post
Yup. WWE still produces an abundance of good-great matches over the course of a year (far more than TNA, though I have no idea how many feel the same way, but I loathe the TNA style of wrestling), but the entire product on a week to week basis is just so stale and stuck in a sense of playing safe. I like the idea of making more angles/feuds heavily relient on the wrestling aspect and trying to make it important to be seen as a better wrestler than your opponent instead of day time soap opera esque Russo plots for feuds...but the likes of the NWA managed to create a product which featured their wrestling as a priority whilst still placing an impotus on the characters and storylines. WWE really should aim to be more like WCW circa 1992 if they're going for a more 'wrestling orientated product'. Keep the wrestling aspect central and keep characters more realistic and relatable instead of overly cartoonish, but still look to book certain feuds in a more grander and differential aspect than others: e.g have Orton/Del Rio be quite violent as a fued, whereas someone like Cesaro can have more wrestling based storylines revolving around building up a legitimate contender to dethrone him.

Every feud feels the same in the way its presented. Wrestler A does commentary as Wrestler B (his feud opponent) wrestles Wrestler C. Wrestler A either a) interferes to force a DQ, b) interferes to cause a loss only to fail and be dumped out of the ring, c) interferes and succeeds in causing Wrestler B to lose or d) just does commentary and then has a post match stardown with Wrestler B.

Then you'll have a standard promo with the babyface being overly comical and being force fed horrendously cheesy lines that remove any sense of emotion and realism in the feud, whislt the heel rattles off generic material about being better. Everything just seems to be in a constant loop instead of trying new angles and different characters and pushing different feuds in different directions. They're doing a better job at generally protecting their champions, but the likes of Cesaro desperately not only need credible feuds, but also need creative to start developing and booking fresh contenders. Whilst Cesaro feuds with Truth they should be trying to build the likes of Kidd, Tatsu, Gabriel, Ryder or some other lowcard babyface as a viable contender to challenge Cesaro when he's finished his current program, instead of just randomly putting Cesaro with Kidd after not seeing him for a month and expecting people to care and be willing to pay money to see them wrestle.
They still do give us good/great matches. That's the irony of what I have to say about the company right now...

See, the hyprocrisy of the WWE right now is that they're apparently trying to keep the focus on stuff in the ring - as opposed to their once over the top, bold storylines. Ok, fine. What's hypocritcal about it is simply this: Vince is intent on not letting the company be considered a wrestling promotion. How could they possibly build on the wrestling aspect when they can't even refer to the sport as that? It's "sports-entertainment". Not wrestling. They're "superstars", "entertainers", "performers". Not wrestlers. Only time you'll hear that word is when WrestleMania is around the corner. That alone is sucking the life from company to actually try and make programs compelling, if you ask me. It's as if the writers sit in their room and say "fuck it" lets push 'this guy' this week to give this other guy something to do. It's not wrestling anymore. We're making a TV show. I really feel that whenever I watch the WWE now. Then I'm supposed to expect this company to go out and want to establish new names for all aspects of the biz? New midcarders, upper midcarders, and main eventers. We aren't going to get that until this company starts to get themselves back into a WRESTLING promotion mindset again.

That backstage crew that books, writes, and makes the WWE go round can't possibly think the majority of their program is what it should be. They absolutely can't. Any success we see out in that ring is clearly from the talent working and them alone.
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Old 10-31-2012, 08:01 PM   #8207 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Orton got fucked over in 04 because he fucked up, plain and simple. All the crap about him not being over, not having charisma and being forced or whatever is just that, crap. Had he not been a junkie and had he actually been able to handle the responsibility of the role he was in, I have no doubt that he would have become what so many hoped and intended him to be. But he was the one who fucked up and ultimately its on his head.

Going to watch a bunch of stuff tomorrow since I'm not working until late. Some Mania XX stuff. Yeah, I'm still there lol, along with Backlash 04 and maybe JDay 04 too if I get that far. Also have HHH/Lesnar SS, Cena/Punk NOC and Seamus/Show HIAC on the to do list.

Most overrated so far: Probably Punk/Jericho, Mania 28 tbh. Wouldn't go anywhere close to 4* for this thing never mind call it a classic. I guess I could throw Rock/Cena in there too while I'm at it.

Most underrated so far: Orton/Kane, Mania 28 is a good shout. This was much better than it had any right to be lol. A lot of the Ascension/Uso's tag matches on NXT have flown under the radar for the most part. Some good stuff there.

Personal favorite so far: HHH/Taker HIAC. I was there live for this shit. Nuff said lol.
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Old 10-31-2012, 08:09 PM   #8208 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

2005 was the best year for in-ring work since 1997. Do I even need to list off all of the fantastic matches (not great, FANTASTIC) that we received on a monthly basis ?

- Elimination Chamber III
- Royal Rumble Match 2005
- MITB I
- Angle vs Michaels I & II
- Taker vs Orton I, II, III, HC Casket, and IV
- HHH-Benoit (Twice on Raw)
- Angle-Flair
- REGAL-BENOIT :O
- Shawn's epic performance against Hogan
- RAW Homecoming
- Edge-Benoit and Jericho-Benjamin BL
- Eddie-Rey 6/23 , JD , GAB, Cage
- HHH-Batista II and ESPECIALLY III
- Taker-JBL Unsanctioned
- Awesome-Tanaka ONS
- HBK-Masters & Angle-Cena UNF
- Flair-HHH I and II
- RAW vs SMACKDOWN SS 05

That's just the tip of the iceberg to the greatest WORKED year of the last 15 years (and that's because I didn't watch in 97). Anybody actually AGREE with me, or am I insane?
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Old 10-31-2012, 08:30 PM   #8209 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Choke2Death View Post
You should go for it. Looking at things from a short view, the whole year seems awesome and I've enjoyed the first month. Are you equally ignorant about Smackdown that year? I've also enjoyed it more than 2004 in the first month with the weird Angle/JBL/Big Show triple threat feud. Lots of unexpected swerves with the heels being top level trolls.
Actually yeah. Other than Rey/Eddie I can't remember much of 05 SD either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by K1ngOfK1ngs View Post
2005 was the best year for in-ring work since 1997. Do I even need to list off all of the fantastic matches (not great, FANTASTIC) that we received on a monthly basis ?

- Elimination Chamber III
- Royal Rumble Match 2005
- MITB I
- Angle vs Michaels I & II
- Taker vs Orton I, II, III, HC Casket, and IV
- HHH-Benoit (Twice on Raw)
- Angle-Flair
- REGAL-BENOIT :O
- Shawn's epic performance against Hogan
- RAW Homecoming
- Edge-Benoit and Jericho-Benjamin BL
- Eddie-Rey 6/23 , JD , GAB, Cage
- HHH-Batista II and ESPECIALLY III
- Taker-JBL Unsanctioned
- Awesome-Tanaka ONS
- HBK-Masters & Angle-Cena UNF
- Flair-HHH I and II
- RAW vs SMACKDOWN SS 05

That's just the tip of the iceberg to the greatest WORKED year of the last 15 years (and that's because I didn't watch in 97). Anybody actually AGREE with me, or am I insane?
Nah I definitely wouldn't agree with that. A year like 2001 demolishes it. Other than the best Rey/Eddie there's probably five or six matches from WWF in 2001 that are better than anything from 2005. I think it was more consistent and I like most of the overrated stuff from 01 better than the overrated stuff from 05. 00 and 04 were better than WWE years than 05 as well. I think a lot of the reason I'm saying this is is because there's SO many praised matches in 05 I don't think are that good. Or in some cases, not good at all. Plus so many of the guys in the main event either I don't really care for or I think were outright bad at the time. Maybe I need to go through the TV stuff, but I'd be surprised if I thought 05 was better than 00, 01, or 04. Are you counting post-05? Because 06 slaughters it as well.
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Old 10-31-2012, 08:32 PM   #8210 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

KOK, you're not insane, from the look of things, I'll enjoy the fuck out of 2005, possibly even more than 03 and 04.

Also first time it got ignored, but does ANYONE have the 4 August, 23 September & 28 October episodes of Smackdown 2005? I have them all except these three!
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