Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread - Page 82 - Wrestling Forum : WWE, TNA, ROH, Wrestling Videos, Women of Wrestling Forums
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Old 04-04-2012, 09:51 AM   #811 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by TJChurch View Post
Anyone with a decent memory who cares about more than a month of WWE's future.

Add his return to "Lord Tensai", & WWE is planning its future based largely on some of the worst of its past.
I swear, do you ever say anything positive? All you ever do is complain about every single thing.


Anyways, Punk/Henry was a pretty good tv match. I thought it would suck, but it surprised the hell out of me.
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Old 04-04-2012, 10:00 AM   #812 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Game1778 View Post
I don't hate Lesnar but I am concerned with his return people forget the performance he put on Wrestlemania 20 the match was atrocious and considering the push he received and the money one would think he would have put in a little more effort I just hope he doesn't do it again
Have you forgot the performance at Mania 19? Or his first title win against the Rock at Summerslam? What about the epic HIAC vs. Taker?

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Originally Posted by TJChurch View Post
Anyone with a decent memory who cares about more than a month of WWE's future.

Add his return to "Lord Tensai", & WWE is planning its future based largely on some of the worst of its past.
Don't ever post in here again, your opinions are terrible. Brock is probably the best 'monster' WWE have ever had and hes a mother fucking draw. Think how epic UFC is to everybody nowadays and Brock adds at least 300,000 buyrate to every show he's in.
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Old 04-04-2012, 10:46 AM   #813 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Yeah1993 View Post
There's pretty much no point on comment on the non-bolded part since we'd be talking back and forth on some loop. You like spectacle, I don't really care for it.
It's a quality of the match. I doesn't matter if you care about it or not (well not for my argument's purpose at least). Do you like crowd reaction? Atmosphere? Ring psychology? Storytelling? Selling? MOVEZZ? Spectacle is a part of the match as these other qualities are (I'm in no way insinuating that they are all equally as important b/c they're not).

Also, this is Aristotle. Theater was the wrestling of his era.

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But the bolded part I'm going to nudge (even though you said you weren't going to address it )- a bunch of people can care for a match with good build up, but the match itself doesn't become magically good based on that alone.
Magically? I simply stated that spectacle amplifies the nature of the match. If it's good, spectacle can push it into being very good (Rock/Hogan, Austin/Rock), and vice versa (Hogan/Sting, Orton/Triple H).

Quote:
So...you're saying that's good or bad? I might be reading this wrong, but it sounds like "Punk v Henry had an easier story to tell so I'll cut the other match some slack because of the multiple layers" or something. I'm probably totally way off and that's not the right way to word it, but that's the impression I'm getting.
First things first. I don't have anything bad to say about Hunter vs. Triple H. I'm not cutting it any slack b/c there's nothing about the match that bothers me. It does have a much more complicated story than Henry vs. Punk (again, assumption) so it does have deeper impact. It affects me more than a match with a pretty linear story would. I know I shouldn't expand on this b/c I haven't seen Punk vs. Henry. I'm just going by your description of the match.

Quote:
I'd rather something simple be pulled off extremely well than something complicated be pulled off poorly. If I watched both matches again I'd have STACKS more negatives for Mania and there's stuff in that match that I had a hard time wrapping my head around in the first place. I'll cop to not getting it if it's explained in a way I agree with, but something like Michaels wanting to stop the match and then flipping out like a wuss when he counted down Trip after the first Tombstone confused me.
I didn't think the Mania match was pulled off poorly at all. If it was, it'd have fallen into Triple H/Orton territory, where they had the story served on a platter and just ruined it.

Quote:
I still don't think that means it's better. It *could*, but not purely from that.
Why not? Evoking greater emotion in the viewer = greater success, surely? And I'm obviously not talking about emotion circa Bryan/Sheamus b/c that was just in poor taste. But I don't see why the original point isn't valid.

Quote:
Purely/mainly because of the lack of (deeper) story?
Yes. I wouldn't have said that if I thought Triple H and Taker did poor work of the story they had, but they didn't imo. I can imagine Henry vs. Punk being good, great even, maybe better than Rock vs. Cena b/c they didn't really do that well with everything they had, but I don't think Triple H vs. Undertaker HIAC could've been much better (yes, certain things could have but it wouldn't have created a big gap in quality).

Quote:
It was weird to me for a few reasons. You hadn't seen the match and completely assumed it would be laughable to think it was better than the Cell. I wouldn't have said anything if it was more "I'd be shocked if I thought that was better than Taker/Trip" (Not that I'm trying to "call you out" in the first place or anything), but "bigger story = better match"
Let me say it again just so there's no confusion caused from my part. I think Triple H vs. Undertaker was very well worked.

Also, maybe I should've worked it differently. Lack of tact on my part and I apologize if I sounded like a douche (was certainly not my intention to do so). But I'm just 100% confident that I won't like Punk/Henry more than Trips/Taker.

Quote:
I'd be surprised if any regular poster in this thread other than Steffan and I thought Punk/Henry was better than the Cell, but I don't think it's laughable to think otherwise. And thinking that Punk/Henry was better the Cell didn't look like something to call "laughable" because it doesn't have a big build or previous ground.

At the end of the day, I sure as hell want story in a match, no matter how tiny or short-lasting it is, but if a match has MORE story and is more significant b/c of "the streak" "end of an era" and eveything in between, I still can't see why it's pretty much instantly better. They have more ground to work with, yeah, but it's sounding like you're saying the worst match with a lot of story is better than the best match with little match, in a way.
No I'm saying that a great match with a great story is better than a great match with a good story.
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Old 04-04-2012, 10:51 AM   #814 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by admiremyclone View Post
I enjoyed the HIAC more after watching it again today, but by god Michaels was horrendous throughout it all. Since he initially came back in 2002 he's been a HORRIBLE actor and he got worse as the years went by. He was so cheesy on Sunday and made it completely unbelievable. If you think that was good acting then I don't know what to say.

Apart from that, the match was great. The sweet chin music into the pedigree made me almost wet my pants. I thought it was all over.
I don't know whether it's just me but as an in-ring performer, I've enjoyed Michaels much more since his return in 2002. I realize you're referring to his "acting;" I just wanted to point it out.

The only matches that hold up in comparison to his post-2002 work: Ladder Match I, Iron Man Match, and vs. Bulldog @ KOTR '96. I like the Cell match against the Undertaker, but I really can't stick to a rating for that match. I'm not THAT high on Mind Games. There is also the No DQ match against Nash and I think that's one awesome match. Yeah, pretty much.

As a character, of course, Michaels has been pale since his return, but that doesn't bother me as much as it may bother others. Still, for me, SummerSlam 2002 and WrestleMania XIX, XX, 21, and XXVI > everything else Michaels has done. Of course, SummerSlam 2002 and WrestleMania XXVI are very, very special.

Continuing the TV match discussions, I adore two of Michaels' TV matches: against Benoit from Raw in Pheonix (2004) and against Triple H from Raw in San Antonio (2003). Splendid stuff.
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Old 04-04-2012, 11:01 AM   #815 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

I prefer Michaels' wrestling post-return as well.
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Old 04-04-2012, 11:03 AM   #816 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Less cocaine up the nose more fun.

I doubt he'll be remembered as much if he didn't return. Certainly not GOAT bracket.
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Old 04-04-2012, 11:19 AM   #817 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Probably not. An advantage to his comeback matches is he had a wider variety of people to face.

Back in 1994 to 1998. His opponents ranged from Jarrett to Sid. None of them exactly masters of the ring
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Old 04-04-2012, 11:31 AM   #818 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

I definitely think Shawn had a better chance since his return in 02 to face great guys and have great matches... which probably makes his stuff pre-back injury more impressive when he was getting good stuff out of utter shit. His top 5 matches for me would be split between pre-back injury and post-back injury, with maybe the deciding match being something from 02 onwards. His character was way better when he was coked up though .
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Old 04-04-2012, 11:33 AM   #819 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Wrestlemania 26 is an excellent match, the Cena series is awesome, SS v Orton is 2007 is very good/borderline great, v Benjamin is a great Raw Match, both Raw matches v Benoit and HHH are excellent as Razor King said....and that's about it for Shawn.

He brings the match down at Wrestlemania 19, Jericho puts in perhaps his career performance (about tied with the HHH LMS match) and yet its probably not even a top 5 Jericho career match because of how Michaels' comeback renders the prior back work which shaped not only Jericho's entire strategy but also the overwhelming story of the match and of his return absolutely useless. Seriously the HBK kickup spot usually annoys me a lot in key situations, and this is about as good as evidence of how it can take me out of a match as I can recall.

I've said my piece about Summerslam 2002, I think they tried to do much and the match feels disjointed in how Michaels goes from underdog to psychpath trying to kill HHH. Felt they either needed to do a bloody brawl or just focus on HHH being a dick and centre the story around whether Michaels still had it, by combining both elements I think it really brought the match down. Its by no means bad, but there's a much better match in them (which funnily enough they achieved in 2003 on Raw).

Wrestlemania 21 is much the same, parts of it are excellent yet there's also far too many faults such as the finisher overkill, Angle's set ups for the Ankle lock and transitions which don't feel built up to, the overkill with the Ankle lock etc etc. Crowd is hot and it does feel like a very big match, still its closer to Kobashi/Misawa 2003 instead of Kobashi/Misawa 1997. Puro watchers will probably understand that reference.
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Old 04-04-2012, 11:37 AM   #820 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

I nearly forgot about the Orton match (Survivor Series 2007). It's one of Michaels' best no doubt and probably Orton's best. Shawn Michaels just couldn't stop having great matches in 2007 and for me, this was the best of the lot.
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