Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread - Page 804 - Wrestling Forum : WWE, TNA, Indy Wrestling, Lucha Underground, Women of Wrestling Forums

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post #8031 of 20566 (permalink) Old 10-29-2012, 03:03 PM
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Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Watched Show/Sheamus and Punk/Ryback again on the replay last night (didn't feel like writing up a review for them until now). Bumped up both of them.

Show/Sheamus- ***3/4
MOTN by a considerable distance and an excellent big man match. Didn't enjoy it as much first around, but the second time I appreciated the storytelling of the match a bit more. It was still coma-inducing for much of the first half, but the ending was even more awesome, starting with White Noise on Show from Sheamus (which was fucking impressive) to Sheamus kicking out of WMD, to Show kicking out of the brogue kick, and finally Sheamus going for the brogue kick but Show hitting the WMD out of nowhere to win the match. It had a great big fight feel to it and a very enjoyable match. I'd say it's Show's best match in a long time... at least since his match against Taker at CS 2008.

Punk/Ryback- ***
Bumped this up a lot, and honestly it's been getting slugged on despite fantastic character portrayals, storytelling and psychology. Punk was a super chickenshit heel in this who sold Ryback's dominance to perfection. And Ryback went out there and absolutely manhandled Punk, only adding to the fear and urgency Punk displayed throughout the match. Punk's first bit of offense was the perfect way to go about it. Punk just moving quickly to get shit done on Ryback when he could was perfect, and Ryback just absorbing those keno-stick shots followed by dishing out another beating on Punk was perfect. The ending was probably the best way to end the match as far as screwjob ending goes. It doesn't book them into a corner with a potential Ryback/Lesnar match, and it keeps Ryback looking unstoppable and that he still can't be beat, even if now he technically has a loss on his record. My favorite spot of the match, while I can't remember if it was the beginning of the match or after, was when Punk getting up near the door of the cell, and Ryback is standing dominantly over him from behind. That just looked awesome. Also Ryback running into the steps and denting them was sick as well.

The match was never going to be a classic, but I maintain it was the best they were going to do, and it was not a shit match. It was a good match with great storytelling and psychology. The action/moves in the match flowed well, and the aftermatch was awesome. The big thing about the match is it should've never been inside HIAC. Should've been a normal match or a No DQ match (to justify using the weapons without getting dq'd). What the match accomplished though was setting up the ground work for the potential WM feud between Punk and Ryback for the title, where Ryback does beat Punk, or if Punk doesn't have the title, Ryback could go after Big Show or Sheamus.

So yeah, it was a good match all around. Not a good cell match, but I'd now easily put it over Taker/Bossman, Taker/Kane, Nash/HHH, and DX/McMahons.

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post #8032 of 20566 (permalink) Old 10-29-2012, 03:14 PM
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Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Can someone elaborate on how the Kane vs Taker cell match is considered one of the worst?

I haven't seen it since 2010 (and it might be the Kane mark in me...) but I thought it was an OK brawl, slightly spoiled by the bizarre-and-outdated ending. Its not one of the best Cell matches by a long stretch, but I can think of many more which I would place lower...

If any rivalry deserved a Hell in a Cell match it was Kane vs Undertaker!

EDIT: Might as well rank the PPV Cell matches whilst I'm here...

1) Lesnar vs Undertaker - No Mercy 2002
2) HBK vs Undertaker - Bad Blood 1997

3) HHH vs Cactus Jack - No Way Out 2000
4) Batista vs HHH - Vengeance 2005
5) Undertaker vs HHH - Wrestlemania 28
6) Undertaker vs Orton - Armageddon 2005
7) Undertaker vs Edge - Summerslam 2008
8) Undertaker vs Batista - Survivor Series 2007
9) Undertaker vs Mankind - King of the Ring 1998

10) Del Rio vs Cena vs Punk - Hell in a Cell 2011
11) Undertaker vs Punk - Hell in a Cell 2009
12) Orton vs Sheamus - Hell in a Cell 2010
13) HHH vs Jericho - Judgement Day 2002
14) Henry vs Orton - Hell in a Cell 2011
15) Angle vs Rock vs Austin vs HHH vs Taker vs Rikishi - Armageddon 2000
16) Orton vs Cena - Hell in a Cell 2009

17) Undertaker vs Kane - Hell in a Cell 2010
18) Punk vs Ryback - Hell in a Cell 2012
19) DX vs Legacy - Hell in a Cell 2009
20) DX vs McMahons & Big Show - Unforgiven 2006
21) HHH vs HBK - Badd Blood 2004

22) HHH vs Nash - Badd Blood 2003
23) Undertaker vs Bossman - Wrestlemania 15

Fan since 2001

Last edited by Kane-UK; 10-29-2012 at 04:19 PM.
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post #8033 of 20566 (permalink) Old 10-29-2012, 03:37 PM
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Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Ooo, ranking cell matches... fun!

1) Undertaker vs. HBK BB97
2) Undertaker vs. Lesnar NM02
3) Undertaker vs. Edge SS08
4) Batista vs. HHH Vengeance 05
5) Undertaker vs. Batista SVS07
6) Undertaker vs. Orton Armageddon05
7) Foley vs. HHH NWO00
8) Undertaker vs. HHH WM28
9) Undertaker vs. Mankind KOTR98
10) 6-man HIAC Armageddon00
11) Punk vs. Cena vs. Del Rio HIAC11
12) Jericho vs. HHH JD02
13) Orton vs. Cena HIAC09
14) Orton vs. Sheamus HIAC10
15) DX vs. Legacy HIAC09
16) Undertaker vs. CM Punk HIAC09
17) HBK vs. HHH BB04
18) Punk vs. Ryback HIAC12
19) Orton vs. Henry HIAC11
20) DX vs. McMahons+Big Show
21) Nash vs. HHH BB03
22) Undertaker vs. Kane HIAC10
23) Undertaker vs. Bossman WM15

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post #8034 of 20566 (permalink) Old 10-29-2012, 03:54 PM
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Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Sheamus vs Big Show , (Hell In a Cell 10/28/12)

Yeah can't think of 5 matches in the company better than it this year. Lesnar/Cena, Cena/Punk, Bryan/Sheamus and Bryan/Punk OTL feel like locks, but I'd say its better than any Punk/Jericho match, better than Cena/Bryan, better than Punk/Ziggler, better than Lesnar/HHH, shit what else is there from WWE in 2012? Punk/Henry 4/2/12 feels like something I'd call better, but not by much and truth be told the finishing stretch as a completion of the story might be enough for me to rank Sheamus/Show better.

Loved the basic story of the match, Sheamus hasn't taken Show seriously and has to fight from the bottom the entire match. From the opening bell to the finish he's pummelled and beaten in nearly every exchange and even when he seemignly finds a small opening the sheer size and strength of Show is too much: especially loved the Cloverleaf counter and the kickout knocking Sheamus to the floor with Sheamus' pained expression really selling how lost for words he was at how the match had gone and how dominant Show had been. Thought the match also had some really subtle and simple but nonetheless smart spots to signify the plight Sheamus was in, a perfect example would be him having to alter his setup for the forearms to the chest spot, only for Show to still find a counter and regain control of the match.

Pacing was very good and they built the eventual moment Sheamus took control marvellously and it felt like a triumphant moment as a result. Thought they also made Sheamus look resilient enough in terms of consistently fighting Show but losing every battle, rather than having him bump for everything and give nothing in return. Closing stretch might honestly be the best of the year for me. Every kickout mattered and actually progressed the match with the two moves the match was built around proving ineffective for the first time, with Sheamus in particular really selling the shock at Show kicking out of the Brogue Kick. Actual finish felt like something out of a Western, two guys locked in a brutal fight going for one last throw of the dice, only for Show to just have the all important reach necessary to knock out Sheamus.

Hopefully this wakes people up who think Sheamus has to be carried to a good/great match. Guy is consistently solid and really has a style that he can work against guys of all sizes and styles, from Bryan and Ziggler to Tensai and Barrett. Bumps well, has strong offence, paces and times the big moments in his matches very well, sells superbly visually and physically: in many ways the perceived lack of stamina actually adds to his selling, since seeing his body drenched in sweat and in the Show match struggling to get to his feet really did sell the wear and tear of the match on an entirely different level. This is how you work a Heavyweight Main Event folks, top effort from both men.

Last edited by WOOLCOCK; 10-29-2012 at 03:59 PM.
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post #8035 of 20566 (permalink) Old 10-29-2012, 04:02 PM
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Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Matches I have above it (and my top 10 so far for the year):

1) Punk/Bryan OTL
2) Punk/Jericho WM28
3) Bryan/Sheamus ER
4) Punk/Jericho ER
5) Punk/Cena NOC
6) Punk/Henry Raw 4/2/12
7) Taker/HHH WM28

Have those 7 above it, and the rest of the top 10:

8) Show/Sheamus HIAC
9) Punk/Kane/Bryan NWO
10) Orton/Jericho/Sheamus/Del Rio OTL

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post #8036 of 20566 (permalink) Old 10-29-2012, 04:09 PM
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Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

It's good to see Show and Seamus getting some praise. I'm already looking forward to a rematch between them to see how they'll work it. Watched it again and can firmly give it **** and maybe even more when I watch it again at the end of the year. Punk/Ryback is still shit on a second viewing. Best thing about it was Ryback's epic new red gear and Paul Heyman screaming from outside the cell lol. HES ALIVE!! HES ALIVEEEEE!
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post #8037 of 20566 (permalink) Old 10-29-2012, 04:19 PM
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Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Originally Posted by The Sandrone View Post
Matches I have above it (and my top 10 so far for the year):

1) Punk/Bryan OTL
2) Punk/Jericho WM28
3) Bryan/Sheamus ER
4) Punk/Jericho ER
5) Punk/Cena NOC
6) Punk/Henry Raw 4/2/12
7) Taker/HHH WM28
Ehh, neither of the Punk/Jericho matches did it for me, though I see why they're popular. Wrestlemania was a match divided by two halfs, opening I thought was sub-par and all the drama around Jericho trying to get Punk DQ'd etc just seemed hammy and forced. I mean this is the Wrestlemania WWE Title match, perhaps the biggest in Punk's career and he's going to potentially lose his cool in the first 5 minutes? Nah I don't buy it now and didn't buy it then. The fact they then transitioned into a standard wrestling match just made the opening seem even more random, like someone in creative decided to add the stip and they just decided to fuck it off in the opening and then do the standard match they wanted to. Still I thought it meant the match was clearly interrupted in terms of flow and really it needed the second half to really save it: whilst I wouldn't call the second half great largely because of Jericho and his 'style' these days, I will say they worked the submission counters in far better fashion than others have done, to the point where they felt integral to the match and not being done for the sake of a counter.

Street fight was just not my thing. Jericho really shouldn't ever be in a violent brawl, he sucked in the Unforgiven Unsanctioned match and he pretty much sucked here. Think I rememeber him doing a chinlock or something at one point? Uhhhh. He's just too clean to work that sort of style convincingly and I can't buy him as a credible threat, same reason Michaels should never ever work hate filled brawls: neither guy has good enough punches/offence in general to communicate hatred. Only time I've enjoyed Jericho in that environment was the GAB match vs Michaels where he works the eye the entire match. Thought Punk was very good and some of the more sloppier spots added to the chaotic nature of the match, and Punk in particular took some big bumps to put over the hate. Still this is a WWE streetfight, meaning 99% of the same weapons and spots appeared and it really made it hard for me to be properly invested: if it was more of a legit fight rather than singapore canes and other props it could have worked better. I thought both guys coming in street clothes was a great touch though, wrestlers wearing their normal attire in brawling matches always looks terrible IMO.

Taker/HHH...pass. Michaels' hammy acting, HHH and his monologues, a decent and compelling story being hammered and hammered and hammered into the viewer's heads until it became irritable, and the fact that HHH and Taker will never have the sort of chemistry to make this sort of match work. Failed at trying to be like the Wrestlemania 26 match in terms of storytelling and WWE Main Event wrestling.

The rest I agree on as being better, with Lesnar/Cena being the Company and worldwide MOTY.
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post #8038 of 20566 (permalink) Old 10-29-2012, 04:27 PM
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Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Just watched Sheamus/Big Show and it was an excellent match like I expected from them. The first half was a bit slow but I liked the storytelling with Sheamus working as the underdog and trying his best to use anything to overcome the Big Show. Great selling job by Sheamus too which makes me wonder what everybody who says he can't sell has been smoking. Then it only gets better in the second half with the signatures and finishers being busted out. Sheamus doing the Celtic Cross was impressive and them kicking out of each other's well-protected finishers was awesome too. I didn't mind the ending as I enjoyed the match itself. Big Show wins and I wonder where they go from here. I rate this ***3/4.
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post #8039 of 20566 (permalink) Old 10-29-2012, 04:30 PM
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Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Ahh yes, the HIAC match rankings.... The first ever project I did for this forum where I established my love for the match type and how it was the greatest match type of all time. Did a HUGEEEEE Choke2Death like writeup on the subject, as well as how Taker and Triple H are the only 2 to have really controlled the classics of this match type. Fantastic stuff, might flush that post out sometime, but here are my updated rankings (excluding the 2 98 RAW matches , as well as the 2011 post Raw dark match which I actually saw):

HIAC Rankings (as of OCT 2012)

1. Shawn Michaels vs The Undertaker (BB 97) : ***** (GOAT Match)

2. Triple H vs Batista (VEN 05) : **** 3/4 (MOTY)
3. Undertaker vs Brock Lesnar (NM 02) : **** 3/4

4. Triple H vs The Undertaker (WM XXVIII) : **** 1/2
5. Undertaker vs Edge (SS 08) : **** 1/2
6. Triple H vs Mick Foley (NWO 00) : **** 1/2

7. The Undertaker vs Randy Orton (ARM 05) : **** 1/4

8. The Undertaker vs Batista (SS 07) : ****
9. Triple H vs Shawn Michaels (BB 04) : ****
10. Armageddon HIAC 6-Man : ****
11. The Undertaker vs Mick Foley (KOTR 98) : ****

12. CM Punk vs Alberto Del Rio vs John Cena (HIAC 11) : *** 3/4
13. Triple H vs Chris Jericho (JD 02) : *** 3/4

14. CM Punk vs The Undertaker (HIAC 09) : *** 1/2
15. Mark Henry vs Randy Orton (HIAC 11) : *** 1/2
16. Triple H vs Kevin Nash (BB 03) : *** 1/2

17. DX vs The Mcmahons/Big Show (UNF 06) : *** 1/4
18. DX vs Legacy (HIAC 09) : *** 1/4

19. CM Punk vs Ryback (HIAC 12) : ***
20. Randy Orton vs Sheamus (HIAC 10) : ***

21. John Cena vs Randy Orton (HIAC 09) : ** 3/4

22. Undertaker vs Kane (HIAC 10) : *

23. The Undertaker vs Big Bossman (WM XV) : DUD. FUCK THIS MATCH.

Three Underrated :

1. HBK-Taker BB 97 (Yes I know it gets a ton of love, but I read a top 10 matches in October PPV history list yesterday and this was only number 4. Should be a universal top 5 match for everyone, dead serious when I say that)
2. Punk-Taker HIAC 09 (Short but sweet, great leg work here and a great overall story)
3. Orton-Henry / HHH-Nash (Couldn't choose, LOVE and ADORE both of these matches)

Three Overrated :

1. Triple H vs The Undertaker WM XXVIII (Yeah I know, it's one of the best matches of the year for sure and an overall great match, I just believe it's slightly overrated. A ton of overkill and over the top performances by HBK brings it down slightly for me. Still, I LOVE THIS MATCH and I think it's Taker's 5th best Mania match)
2. Randy Orton vs Sheamus HIAC 10 (has legit one of the dumbest moments I've ever seen in a match. I don't even need to explain it, just watch the match yourself, how the commentators justify this dumb action is hilarious)
3. Randy Orton vs John Cena (Just not a good match. PERIOD.)

King of the Cell : The Undertaker

Runner Up : THE GAME

"He's not the biggest. He was never the strongest. He was never the fastest. He was overlooked. He went in the sixth round. So with that being said, all of the intangibles that a quarterback is supposed to have, they overlooked it with him because it was burning from inside of him" - Ray Lewis on Tom Brady
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post #8040 of 20566 (permalink) Old 10-29-2012, 05:02 PM
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Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Well now I have to watch that Sheamus-Orton match just to see what you're talking about.
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