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post #791 of 20566 (permalink) Old 04-04-2012, 02:30 AM
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Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

By storyline, I'm assuming you mean the story told in the ring?

Personally, storytelling is the biggest aspect of a wrestling match for me. It's not about the work-rate, but the story told in the ring. If two wrestlers can't tell a convincing story and can't give me a reason to care why they want what they want and why they are wrestling one another; chances are, I won't be bothered. I used to adore technical classics, but suddenly, I've started to adore high-impact matches and brawls much more.

For me a match like Diesel/Bret from Rumble '95 would be much more interesting than most WWE matches. Seeing Bret beat the shit out of Nash's leg and do whatever the fuck to win the title--as it would be in real life--is much more intriguing that two wrestlers grappling each other.

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post #792 of 20566 (permalink) Old 04-04-2012, 02:37 AM
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Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by K1ngOfK1ngs View Post
15. WM XXV: Triple H vs Randy Orton: *** 1/2

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post #793 of 20566 (permalink) Old 04-04-2012, 03:43 AM
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Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Razor King View Post
By storyline, I'm assuming you mean the story told in the ring?

Personally, storytelling is the biggest aspect of a wrestling match for me. It's not about the work-rate, but the story told in the ring. If two wrestlers can't tell a convincing story and can't give me a reason to care why they want what they want and why they are wrestling one another; chances are, I won't be bothered. I used to adore technical classics, but suddenly, I've started to adore high-impact matches and brawls much more.
Yes, but having a good build-up or a center to the story that the wrestlers are going to tell always helps.

I'm sure Henry and Punk could tell a wonderful story together. That's not what I'm basing that comment on. They just don't have enough background to tell as good a story in the ring as Triple H and Undertaker (and especially Shawn Michaels) did at WrestleMania. I'll definitely watch the match and I'm prepared to eat my words if I'm wrong.

This is also the reason I was ecstatic when Jericho asked Punk, "How's your father?" That's the shade of villainy that the match needed. I enjoyed the wrestling exchange towards the finish and the stiffing throughout, but the storyline added a much needed separate dimension to the match.

And as for all the people who are saying that the Hell in a Cell wasn't needed for the match. I think you're ABSOLUTELY WRONG. The history between the two guys and the cell is one thing. Second, the match was not about brutality. The Cell was the setting for this story. It would not have had the same impact without the Cell. It also was instrumental to my favourite spot in the match. Undertaker disarming Triple H of the sledgehammer and tossing it violently into the Cell. What if there was no barrier? Dead audience member? YAY.

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post #794 of 20566 (permalink) Old 04-04-2012, 04:02 AM
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Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Hohenheim of Light View Post
Yes, but having a good build-up or a center to the story that the wrestlers are going to tell always helps.

I'm sure Henry and Punk could tell a wonderful story together. That's not what I'm basing that comment on. They just don't have enough background to tell as good a story in the ring as Triple H and Undertaker (and especially Shawn Michaels) did at WrestleMania. I'll definitely watch the match and I'm prepared to eat my words if I'm wrong.

This is also the reason I was ecstatic when Jericho asked Punk, "How's your father?" That's the shade of villainy that the match needed. I enjoyed the wrestling exchange towards the finish and the stiffing throughout, but the storyline added a much needed separate dimension to the match.

And as for all the people who are saying that the Hell in a Cell wasn't needed for the match. I think you're ABSOLUTELY WRONG. The history between the two guys and the cell is one thing. Second, the match was not about brutality. The Cell was the setting for this story. It would not have had the same impact without the Cell. It also was instrumental to my favourite spot in the match. Undertaker disarming Triple H of the sledgehammer and tossing it violently into the Cell. What if there was no barrier? Dead audience member? YAY.
Yeah, I agree. The backdrop of the match and the history leading to the match provides so much intrigue. It adds another dimension; one could suppose, it ignites a match that could/would have been an ordinary affair. Triple H and the Undertaker have so much history together. I don't mean this in the sense that these guys hate each other or have any other relationship. Their journey from the New Generation Era and right until Shawn's retirement, which was a result of his obsession over the Streak; for Triple H and the Undertaker, it was romantic journey set in their own paths and when they finally did it at WrestleMania 27, it was immense. This time, inside the Cell, it was very special, very different, and in a sense--the grand finale of both careers. WrestleMania X-Seven was built out of animosity, whilst the last two matches were built upon the legacies of both men. Both men won't have to neccesarily retire, but this match will forever remain the "final moment" of both careers. Undoubtedly, it's the biggest match of both careers.

The entire build-up didn't need anything because there wasn't anything either could do. This was something developed by the wrestling destinies of both men and it was only appropriate that these two Legends finished it off inside the Hell in a Cell at WrestleMania. There are some truly dream matches; at WrestleMania 28, we witnessed a dream match that had so much history and was so rich in emotional fortune. Comparing that match to any other match is gross injustice because you have wrestling matches everyday, but few, very few wrestling stories that you would look back many years from now and have a nostalgic smile because it indeed signified something very special.


On a different note and in general, there have been two trilogies at WrestleMania: Rock/Austin and Undertaker/Hunter. How would you rate each match and which one do you prefer?

My ratings for the two trilogies:

Rock/Austin ~ ***, *****, **** 1/2
Undertaker/Hunter ~ *** 1/2, *****, **** 3/4


As a fan of Undertaker and Triple H, I prefer this one to Rock/Austin, but I absolutely adore their matches at X-Seven and XIX.

Somehow, I just realized that Rock has headlined all three WrestleManias with Undertaker vs. Triple H.

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post #795 of 20566 (permalink) Old 04-04-2012, 05:46 AM
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Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Hohenheim of Light View Post
Because I'm not a "TV MATCHES RULE. PPV SUCKS" guy. In fact, I'm probably the exact opposite. The grander the stage, the better the potential of the match (I say potential specifically b/c if they bomb, they'll bomb VERY BADLY e.g. Hulk/Sting).

Edit: Plus, I'm kinda beyond the point of caring about ring-work anymore. Storyline > Workrate.
I don't think anyone is a "TV MATCHES RULE. PPV SUCKS" guy. I prefer MIGHT a tv match because I like a simpler story, I guess, but post-85 (first WWF PPV), WWE hasn't put on a tv match that's as good as the tenth best PPV match (approx). Bolded part makes no sense to me. If two guys get a match on SmackDown for 20 minutes and get a match at WrestleMania for 20 minutes, I don't see why one has potential to be better than the other. Even if one is built well and the other is built like shit.

Caring about "ring-work" = move-for-move holds? I agree to some extent; 'workrate' matches like what you'll find a guy like Dean Malenko doing aren't my thing, but I don't see how you'd get the impression Punk v Henry is more about 'workrate' than about A Tired Exhausted CM Punk Coming Off of WrestleMania Having to Fend Off ENORMOUS FAT MAN Mark Henry. In capital letters and everything. I watched the match twice and it told a far better story (albeit a small one) than most if not all of Mania, and I think it was better than anything on the card (MAYBE not Punk/Jericho. Just MAYBE). Punk was exhausted and rib-hurt for the whole thing. Henry attacks mid-section multiple times and yells at Punk (seriously that was fucking awesome- I OWN YOU. DID I TELL YOU TO MOVE? GET'CHO HAND OFF MAH FACE). Punk tried a million times to get more and more offense in but Henry cut him off each time and sold exhaustion more down the line. Finish didn't sit too well with me, but the story, even insignificant in the grand scheme of both guys (or maybe not WHO KNOWS WWE UNPREDICTABLE~~~, was terrific.

I'm long past the point where I watch wrestling for move-for-move holds. I think most are past that point after not long which is why there's so much "All Japan 90s is the greatest thing ever" talk. Watching the Misawa/Akiyama v Kawada/Taue stuff of 96 chronologically recently was an absolute thing of beauty, because the December tag made everything come full circle and in general, was just pulled off so well. I didn't think Hunter v Taker was.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Razor King View Post
Personally, storytelling is the biggest aspect of a wrestling match for me. It's not about the work-rate, but the story told in the ring. If two wrestlers can't tell a convincing story and can't give me a reason to care why they want what they want and why they are wrestling one another; chances are, I won't be bothered. I used to adore technical classics, but suddenly, I've started to adore high-impact matches and brawls much more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hohenheim of Light View Post
Yes, but having a good build-up or a center to the story that the wrestlers are going to tell always helps.
That's almost exactly why I didn't love (or almost *like* at all, really) Trip v Taker. I didn't buy practically any of it because I didn't think it was pulled off well. The story WAS good- HHH goes against Taker again at Mania inside the Cell, and Michaels (who lost to Taker twice in a row at the show) is referee. But it was so carny and cheesy that I didn't....give a rat's ass. I'd hate to harp on this, but Michaels blew, and no matter how good the story is, if a wrestler (or referee ex-wrestler IDK) is sucking then I don't care about it. It felt like a well built feud with a bad pay-off, and essentially that's what I thought it was. I don't want wrestlers to look like robots programmed to do a set of moves. That's an automatic piece of shit. But a match with a story isn't an automatic not-piece of shit. What? That made some sense, somewhere. I don't think Trip v Taker was a piece of shit btw, but there were too many negatives and Punk/Henry (outside the finish) was basically perfectly worked for a 12 minute Raw match.

My favourite match ever is Rey/Eddie 6/23/05. 90% of the reason behind that is beccause of how much of a dick Guerrero plays. The "action" is good action, but I get the feeling from that match that:

a) Rey isn't doing the moves for "wrestling," he's doing them for revenge. Targets bruise, etc.
b) Eddie dicks Rey around and cheapshots him becasue he wants to torment Rey more.
c) Rey beating Eddie is another loss for Eddie and that kills him.
d) Eddie needs to beat Rey- hasn't done so since they started the feud (the feud of 05, anyway).

I even look into the "deeper" parts of the match that almost certainly mean jack shit. I remember Rey using a boot. A BOOT, FFS. I don't remember Rey ever using a boot anywhere else and that spoke to me as "need to pull EVERYTHING out, motherfucker."

When I watch Dean Malenko do....almost anything. Let's say- pull a guy's head up after going for the cover after a hard-fought finish run, I think:

a) He's a fucking idiot.
b) I don't give a shit about the match anymore.
c) He's a fucking idiot.

So yeah, I prefer a story over a workrate, but I guess I can find a story in almost anything I like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hohenheim of Light View Post
I'm sure Henry and Punk could tell a wonderful story together. That's not what I'm basing that comment on. They just don't have enough background to tell as good a story in the ring as Triple H and Undertaker (and especially Shawn Michaels) did at WrestleMania. I'll definitely watch the match and I'm prepared to eat my words if I'm wrong.
You could hate Punk/Henry and I would fly to where you live and take a tomahawk to your face not care at all. I'm not bothered if someone thinks H/Taker is a trillion times better than Punk/Henry, but it's odd to me that someone would say it's laughable to say the opposite, esp. before watching it. I don't get how a tv match (or any match without a long feud) just CAN'T be match of the year by some people's standards.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hohenheim of Light View Post
This is also the reason I was ecstatic when Jericho asked Punk, "How's your father?" That's the shade of villainy that the match needed. I enjoyed the wrestling exchange towards the finish and the stiffing throughout, but the storyline added a much needed separate dimension to the match.
I agree with that totally; Jericho and Punk going counter for counter straight away while ignoring any previous story would have sucked fucking arse. If a guy talks about my mother, father, sister, friends, or KAIENTAI in any negative way I'd want to shoot them and not outwrestle them. I adore some matches that are pretty much based purely on story (e.g. Rey/Eddie GAB), I just don't think a match with a long background is autmotacially better than a random tv match because of the fact it has a story, and it's weird to me that someone would assume so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hohenheim of Light View Post
And as for all the people who are saying that the Hell in a Cell wasn't needed for the match. I think you're ABSOLUTELY WRONG. The history between the two guys and the cell is one thing. Second, the match was not about brutality. The Cell was the setting for this story. It would not have had the same impact without the Cell. It also was instrumental to my favourite spot in the match. Undertaker disarming Triple H of the sledgehammer and tossing it violently into the Cell. What if there was no barrier? Dead audience member? YAY.
I loved the idea of the cell when they announced it, it's the fact it wasn't used almost at all that sort of irked me. I'm trying to think to myself what else I'd want to happen with it, and I'm coming up short. Wouldn't have wanted a giant spot. Wouldn't have wanted a twenty minute head-into-cage-fest. Wouldn't have wanted them to go outside the cell. So IDK.


I didn;t type that in the order of which it posted. There's probably fucks up there and I'm not reading over it.

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post #796 of 20566 (permalink) Old 04-04-2012, 05:58 AM
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Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

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Sorry to ask this again but does anybody know if the Bret Hart/Austin/Taker/Vader match from In Your House 13 and the main event from Survivor Series 2001 are on comps anywhere? Two of my fav matches and I dont want to buy those PPVs just for those matches. The IYH is about $30 used on VHS on amazon and you can get 2001 Survivor Series for about $30 used. Now I love 2001 Survivor Series but mostly because of that main event. Again sorry for the repeat question but I know there are some on here who know more about wrestling DVDs and have more comps than me.

Ok as you were.........
http://www.thehistoryofwwe.com/results.htm

According to the site above, neither match were released on any other DVDs or VHS.
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post #797 of 20566 (permalink) Old 04-04-2012, 06:09 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Can't you just import the Tagged Classic shows from Amazon.co.uk? I can get DVD's from Amazon.com just fine, so I guess the opposite should be just as easy?

Gave Henry/Punk another watch last night because... well I was bored and all my mates stood me up on pub night so I had nothing better to do like hang out with my friends and get drunk. Cunts. Anyway. Was still really good, and better than anything at WM aside from Punk/Jericho and Undertaker/HHH. Henry looked awesome in it. My god the guy needs to get back into the title scene and go on another murderous rampage. Maybe on Raw this time. The shot to Punk where he held Punk's leg from a kick attempt and then just BLASTED him in the face was awesome. YES! YES! YES! chants for Punk as he started kicking the big man down was great too. I wish the crowds were always like this. I'd probably throw ***3/4 stars at it, which probably makes it the third best MOTY for me (I've been limited to just WWE stuff and the occasional TNA match).
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post #798 of 20566 (permalink) Old 04-04-2012, 07:02 AM
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Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

So I just typed up a long response to Yeah1993 and the computer erased it. So I'm just gonna say:

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post #799 of 20566 (permalink) Old 04-04-2012, 07:02 AM
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Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Fuck me that pop from Lesnar was huge. Just saw Lord Tackamichinoku return and I'm certainly going to hate him. I like tattoos, especially a nice sleeve like Orton, but what the hell are his?

I think I'll watch some wrestling today for the first time in around 8 months starting with Punk/Jericho. I'm gonna love that shit.

EDIT: I like Cena, but he's doing my nut in latelty. Why does he insist on no selling?

Last edited by Word; 04-04-2012 at 07:04 AM.
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post #800 of 20566 (permalink) Old 04-04-2012, 07:11 AM
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Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

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So I just typed up a long response to Yeah1993 and the computer erased it. So I'm just gonna say:

Yeah1993.
SUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUURE.

But yeah I've had that happen when WF would log me out. Been using the automatic log in tick box mainly so that wouldn't happen (+ typing name & password every time is shitty and annoying)

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