Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread - Page 738 - Wrestling Forum : WWE, TNA, Debate League, Wrestling Videos, Women of Wrestling Forums
 
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post #7371 of 20566 (permalink) Old 10-15-2012, 09:17 AM
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Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Orton in 2004-2006 was just a godsend. Sublime character who was easy to hate, really understood how to wrestle as a heel and added so many heel mannerisms to his work e.g eye rakes, hair pulling, complaining about shenanigans when he was fairly put on his ass, stooging and stalling for time, feet on the ropes, having Flair/Batista assist in abdominal stretches. Add to that he also had a very good moveset to build a match, was a very good seller of offence and was agile enough to hang with the likes of Mysterio and Benoit whilst having the size to wrestle as a believeable threat to Undertaker. He was also brilliantly versatile, whether he was a cocky shit (Edge Vengeance 04, Mysterio 06 matches), a guy working stiffer and more physical matches (Benoit matches 04-06) or working big time matches (Taker feud, Cena Summerslam 07) he excelled in each area.

Sad to see what he's become now. He's pretty much abandoned the mannerisms and subtle touches to his work, has become closer to Edge in terms of ludicrously bad 'facial expressions', has developed this dreary monotonous style of ring work (I swear to christ there was one match in 2010 where he legit spent close to one minute doing stomps to a guy's arm, hand, ankle, leg etc and then went for a kneedrop only to miss and I felt like 2 minutes of my life were just wasted for absolutely nothing) and for the life of him cannot make himself a good face in peril no matter how mechanically good he is at selling etc: he's just not someone who should be getting worked over and making the comeback: he should be the asskicker and then use his good selling of offence to be the base for a babyface's comeback. His viper esque writhing 'selling' just makes it so hard to get invested in his FIP spells compared to an Evan Bourne or Mysterio who fly around the ring and bump like madmen to get over the workover.

His matches may also be the worst example of a formula making it hard to continually watch a wrestler. All his setups just feel the same even if he does switch parts of his offence up, his clothesline combo and duck into backbreaker sequence may be the worst 'quickfire main event babyface comeback' in recent memory and I just find very little to actually enjoy in his matches: the offence never looks great or painful, his workover is never memorable because the way he bumps just removes any drama from the match, really the only thing I can say he does well now is finishing stretches since a lot of his signature offence works in a way that you can buy his opponent countering it before Orton actually hits the move, and in that sense some of his finishing stretches with Ziggler in particular feel chaotic and fast paced in a natural way.

Cena's 2007 is better for me than Orton's peak, though Orton was a far better character at the time and I totally get why he was probably the more watchable, especially because his cockiness and physique made for so many interesting match ups. Cena post 2007 is far and away the better of the two however. Orton had sporadic moments of his peak in 07 and 08, but post 2009 and the Viper character I legit can't think of too many matches of his I'd point to as being 'great', and trying to actually name Orton performances post 2009 that I think carry a match might be even harder. I found Christian better in the Over the Limit match, was more invested in Henry during their NOC match (though that might actually be Orton's best performance in a couple of years), thought Punk was the better guy in both of their PPV matches and brought more to the match through his mannerisms, facial expressions and match layout etc.
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post #7372 of 20566 (permalink) Old 10-15-2012, 09:26 AM
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Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

As a character performance, Orton in the I Quit match against Cena at BP 09 is one of my favorites. I love that match solely based on Orton alone. The ending is fucking bullshit though but I don't let it take away from Orton's awesome portrayal of his character in that one.


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post #7373 of 20566 (permalink) Old 10-15-2012, 09:33 AM
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Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Its probably either that match, Cena NWO 2008 or the Henry match for best Orton performances since he passed his 'peak'. I think I still prefer the Henry performance, just because he's placed in a position he hasn't generally excelled in (making me want to root for him as a sympathetic babyface) yet he manages to really add to the match and his inability to cut Henry down was a really great side story besides the obvious 'can Henry finally win the big one' story. At least in the Cena match he was put in a position where he could be cruel and sadistic and then serve as the base of the comeback, rather than having to be the babyface in the Henry match and make me care about it besides my marking for how great Henry was.

That isn't meant to undermine his performance in the I Quit match, since it is excellent. I just find that Orton by rule of average is likely to have far better performances in that sort of environment than he is as a pure babyface in a clean wrestling match. Kind of like Edge making a name for himself in TLCs against Hardy, Flair, Cena and co but never impressing me as a singles main event wrestler. I'd sooner call an Edge performance in a singles match his best if he really excelled and had me questioning if I'd been wrong to doubt him all this time, compared to a TLC performance where I've come to expect that's where he shines brightest (or irritates me less).
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post #7374 of 20566 (permalink) Old 10-15-2012, 09:35 AM
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Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Orton was such a great dick heel in 2005/2006. His match with Mysterio at NWO 2006 made me wanna slap his shit eating grin right off his face.

Now he's all "My name.......... it Randy Orton", a robotic wrestler who wrestles slow matches. I don't think he gives a shit anymore.

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post #7375 of 20566 (permalink) Old 10-15-2012, 09:45 AM
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Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

His Mysterio work might actually be the best he's ever been in a ring. I've said it enough times, but its a crying shame Orton/Mysterio wasn't the Smackdown Main Event at Wrestlemania 22 with Angle/Taker having a separate match, instead of the crap triple threat we got where Mysterio was made to look like Angle's bitch for 9 minutes before winning in the most unmemorable fashion. The April Smackdown match for the title might actually be the best WHC match ever, though Angle/Taker NWO is still the frontrunner for me. Still Orton's headlock and general offence has never looked better to me and he's a tremendous base for all of Mysterio's offence.

Nowadays...his style is just a complete 360 to what I like in a wrestler. Whether its stiff/good looking offence, some sense of structure and story dominating the match, a good FIP section and teasing the babyface comeback etc, his matches are just so dry and tame. Feels like he has his set up spots for certain moves, and even if he does alternate them it still comes off as the same spot and just makes me feel bored watching it. I can't think of too many matches from Orton recently where the first 2/3rds of a match has actually mattered by the end, everything before the finishing stretch just feels like killing time before they start trading counters and signature offence.
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post #7376 of 20566 (permalink) Old 10-15-2012, 09:48 AM
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Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

I loved Orton's ring work from '03 to '08 and then the feuds with Cena/H/Batista started and I began to lose some interest. Then those horrendous Barrett & Miz matches in 2010 killed me. He's still one of my favorite wrestlers of all time but I agree his matches are very tamed now.



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post #7377 of 20566 (permalink) Old 10-15-2012, 10:22 AM
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Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Starbuck View Post
Agreed with whoever said Orton on a weekly basis but Cena in a big match situation. Cena's top/best matches are better than Orton's top/best matches too imo so I guess Cena overall.
Not trying to attack, honest question for anyone to answer, does being a better big match worker make you a better worker overall compared to a better week-to-week worker? When you mentioned Cena's big matches being better than Orton's that got me to think about other comparisons like Benoit & Undertaker or Rey Mysterio & Triple H. One is/was the more consistent yearly while the other was more consistent in the classic main events.


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post #7378 of 20566 (permalink) Old 10-15-2012, 10:34 AM
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Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Orton has pretty much been stripped of all the things that made him great back in the day. As the Legend Killer, he was such a great heel. He was oozing charisma with some of the best heelish facial expressions, his promo skills were good (although he always sounds like he's remembering a script so he's obviously never topping any "best mic skills" lists) and his wrestling abilities were a bit sloppier than he's been as The Viper, but the match quality was always good. Now, he can wrestle pretty well and has far better knowledge on how to structure a match. For instance, he never lifts up his opponent just to dropkick them as that's a move that should be used out of nowhere when opponent runs towards you. For better or worse, his matches are a lot more methodical which can get a bit boring. But the part that has suffered the most is his charisma/mic skills. He always has to resort to "My name........... is Randy Orton!" and come across as this super shy guy that takes no shit when he's not about that at all. And as well as he plays a stalking snake when setting up the RKO, sometimes his facial expression can be terrible (most wrestlers are not great at pulling the 'angry face') and you just don't recognize the talent when you watch him as well as you would have when he was the Legend Killer.

I should make a list for him, though. I'm a huge fan and pretty familiar with most of his stuff.
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post #7379 of 20566 (permalink) Old 10-15-2012, 10:39 AM
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Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clique View Post
Not trying to attack, honest question for anyone to answer, does being a better big match worker make you a better worker overall compared to a better week-to-week worker? When you mentioned Cena's big matches being better than Orton's that got me to think about other comparisons like Benoit & Undertaker or Rey Mysterio & Triple H. One is/was the more consistent yearly while the other was more consistent in the classic main events.
It's a great question actually. I don't know lol. I guess that those big time matches and moments are what solidifies careers etc so they hold more weight. I would reckon that Taker and HBK having their awesome match at Mania 25 means that it gets held in higher regard by a lot of folks compared to if it happened on a lesser PPV or a Raw/SD. Maybe. Then there's this to consider. The guys who don't get to work a lot of main events have to be consistent weekly if they are to get any credit while the guys who know they have a main event slot coming up can perhaps afford to slack off during the weekly shows because they know they have the platform to perform on PPV. Benoit and Rey haven't had the same chances to work big main event matches like Taker and HHH have if that makes sense. I'm not saying the latter two can coast but I'm pretty sure that it happens. Cena is probably the best example of that happening. His weekly Raw matches are so paint by numbers. Some of his PPV matches are the same. But stick him in a big match situation and he performs. At the end of the day, it's the big PPV or Wrestlemania main event that the vast majority of people are going to remember over the smaller PPV/Raw/SD match. If you can perform on the big stage, does it prove your worth as a worker? Like I said before, I really don't know lol. I think there are a lot of different answers to this question. Cena/Rey from Raw is an awesome match but hardly anybody remembers it. Stick it on PPV and I'm pretty sure a lot more people would know about and remember it. There's more pressure to have a great match at a Wrestlemania than on SD you know. Pretty sure I just rambled on for a bit there but I hope you get the picture lol.


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post #7380 of 20566 (permalink) Old 10-15-2012, 10:40 AM
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Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clique View Post
Not trying to attack, honest question for anyone to answer, does being a better big match worker make you a better worker overall compared to a better week-to-week worker? When you mentioned Cena's big matches being better than Orton's that got me to think about other comparisons like Benoit & Undertaker or Rey Mysterio & Triple H. One is/was the more consistent yearly while the other was more consistent in the classic main events.
I wouldn't say so, to me I look at a worker regardless of his card positioning (not saying others don't, just citing my point). When I consider what makes a good worker, I have a certain list in my head:

Babyface - very good/great seller, smart structurer of his comeback, bumps big, good offence which either looks good (i.e stiff/painful when the match calls for it), is timed well to get a good reaction, unique touches (incoporating a weakened limb into his offence: e.g Christian selling the left arm after using it to hit a tornado DDT or switching up parts of his offence because the arm he'd normally use is hurt). Someone like an Evan Bourne is at minimum a good worker to me because he generally excells at these attributes, certainly compared to someone like Ryder or even current day Orton who may be good at some of these attributes, but bombs badly in other areas.

Heel - painful looking offence, smart layout of the match, facial expressions/mannerisms to sell a match through emotion, e.g furious in the beginning when he gets outwrestled, vicious when on offence, cocky the longer he dominates, frustrated/worried when he can't put his opponent away, big bumper, eats opponent's offence well, creative touches either as a transition spot or creative offence in general, making a workover feel important to the finishing stretch of a match, so the match flows rather than the final third being completely separate from the first 2/3rds.

To me, that's the standard of a good/great worker whether the babyface in question is Evan Bourne or John Cena, and the heel in question is 2006 Finlay or 2012 CM Punk.

Finlay to me is a better worker in that sense than any WWE heel in recent memory aside from maybe 2004-06 Orton. HHH, JBL, Batista, Lesnar, Angle, Edge etc all failed to be as good a worker as Finlay in those attributes I mentioned. Every part of his match felt relevant, there was always a good story to be found in his matches, he sold a match just as well visually as his opponent did a limb, his matches generally were creative and had several things you weren't used to seeing and most importantly it always felt like the match was constantly building and moving along at a nice pace instead of stopping and starting and going off in several directions.

I can appreciate why the likes of Shawn Michaels, HHH, Undertaker, Edge and co are seen as better workers than the likes of Finlay, Regal, Mysterio, Matt Hardy and other midcard 'workhorses' not named Benoit or Eddie: the 'elite' obviously were put in big time matches/angles that could captivate a crowd where as the Finlay's and Regal's where confined to great individual performances but rarely given a chance to excel in a big time environment: hell their entire style was the complete opposite of what a HHH or Edge for example would use in a main event match.

To me a good/great worker are ones who excel at the attributes I included, since its these attributes which I've become a greater fan of the more wrestling I've watched. I can see the merit in Cena's big time matches and performances earning him more praise than Orton maybe having generally solid matches on a week to week basis (though tbf I think Cena has just on average as good a TV output as Orton, especially post 2009), but to me if you had Orton working the main event and Cena working a lower position on the card I'd still call him a better worker because he just does a lot more of the things I've grown to appreciate better than Orton. I mean I like Cena a hell of a lot more than others, but he's not even close to being as good as Finlay, Regal or Danielson: regardless of his best matches perhaps being better/more memorable than their best matches.

Last edited by WOOLCOCK; 10-15-2012 at 10:43 AM.
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