Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread - Page 737 - Wrestling Forum : WWE, TNA, Debate League, Wrestling Videos, Women of Wrestling Forums
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Old 10-14-2012, 11:50 PM   #7361 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

For a week to week basis and just personal preference I have Orton over Cena, but for the big match situations I have Cena over Orton. Orton's more consistent a producing quality TV matches, and I just like Orton's smooth flowing pace of his matches oppose to Cena's awkwardness at times. I think they both can sell well but Orton's a better long term seller and implements excellent nuances in his matches that I catch and enjoy.
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Old 10-15-2012, 03:25 AM   #7362 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by K1ngOfK1ngs View Post
Thanks for the suggestions Yeah. Where would you consider Orton's peak to have taken place ? It would have to be from the program with The Undertaker up until his suspension right after Wrestlemania XXII wouldn't it ? I mean, DAMN he put on some really great matches in that time period.

WM XXI vs Taker : **** 1/4
SS 05 vs Taker : ****
NM 05 Casket Match : **** 1/4
SS 05 Elimination Tag : ****
ARM 05 vs Taker HIAC : ****
NWO 06 vs Rey : ****

Plus you had the TV matches with Benoit that I'm currently watching. God damnit, I never realize how fucking awesome Orton was at that time period. Who was better than him at that point ? I can't think of very many honestly. That's actually better than Cena's peak.. Would have to agree. SIX **** PPV matches in a row ? Going to look back over the last few years to see how many times that's been done since then.
Honestly I'd probably consider his peak to be like a two year stretch. Around April 04-April 06. 2004 might be my favourite. Great Raw 2004 run with a ton of Evolution v Benoit & Co. tags, stuff with Edge, Benoit, Foley.

I'm not one to use Dave Meltzer as a source for anything, but you can go to this page and ctrlF '2004', and you'll get his ratings for the year. You can totally IGNORE those ratings if you want (2006- I like how he rated Michaels v Vince from Mania over Rey v Orton from NWO), but look at the match listings as there's a lot of great tag match-ups there. I like using star rating listings like this a lot to look at random matches that might have happened that I want to see.

http://starratingslist.blogspot.com....6-present.html

Not too many guys in the WWE during that period as good as Orton, yeah. Benoit, Eddie and Rey were definitely better. I think a guy like Regal was better when he got the chance, but that didn't happen too often. Taker was probably better starting from 2005. I don't love his 2004, but then again I doubt Orton could have gotten the match out of Heidenreich that Taker did. Matt Hardy may have been better. He definitely was in 2005, anyway. I can't think of anyone else.

If both Orton and Cena retired by the end of 2006 I'd take Orton in *heartbeat*, but I would take Cena's 2007 peak over Orton's objectively. But I do like watching Orton more. That may or may not make all the sense in the world. I think it just comes down to me liking the dickhead heel cockface over the work-from-the-bottom unbeatable champ. I think I agree with Clique that Orton's a better week-to-week wrestler and Cena's better for your main events. Overall on a "best of" list I gotta go with Cena being higher.

Also I forgot to mention Orton/JBL/Finlay v Rey/Benoit/Lashley from 06. No one talks about that and it's fun as hell. Dave only gave it ***1/4, but I think it's better than that so poo to him.
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Old 10-15-2012, 04:41 AM   #7363 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

TNA spoilers in the WWE thread Really?
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Old 10-15-2012, 05:29 AM   #7364 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

I'd rather have a wrestler who produces a classic every now and then over a wrestler who has solid matches everyday--but a few standout matches. Highs and Lows > Straight Line.
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Old 10-15-2012, 05:30 AM   #7365 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

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TNA spoilers in the WWE thread Really?
I appreciate you getting rid of it. Haven't had the chance to watch the show yet.
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Old 10-15-2012, 06:35 AM   #7366 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

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TNA spoilers in the WWE thread Really?
i fucked up there

my fault, went to sleep right after so I didn't get a chance to put it in the TNA thread
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Old 10-15-2012, 06:39 AM   #7367 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

After watching the Rise and Fall of ECW, I noticed (and heard before anyway) that Kurt Angle was close to signing for ECW before the whole "crucifixion" of Sandman changed his mind, but wasn't he involved in the WWE or at least aware that The Undertaker did the same thing with a number of superstars?
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Old 10-15-2012, 07:07 AM   #7368 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Agreed with whoever said Orton on a weekly basis but Cena in a big match situation. Cena's top/best matches are better than Orton's top/best matches too imo so I guess Cena overall.
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Old 10-15-2012, 07:29 AM   #7369 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

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After watching the Rise and Fall of ECW, I noticed (and heard before anyway) that Kurt Angle was close to signing for ECW before the whole "crucifixion" of Sandman changed his mind, but wasn't he involved in the WWE or at least aware that The Undertaker did the same thing with a number of superstars?
Well the crucifixion was 1996 I think. It's possible that he changed and became more relaxed about things when Undertaker started doing it. It's also likely that he just didn't want to walk out on what was becoming the biggest wrestling company in the world at the time over Undertaker's crucifixions and learned to deal with it.
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Old 10-15-2012, 08:17 AM   #7370 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Orton in 2004-2006 was just a godsend. Sublime character who was easy to hate, really understood how to wrestle as a heel and added so many heel mannerisms to his work e.g eye rakes, hair pulling, complaining about shenanigans when he was fairly put on his ass, stooging and stalling for time, feet on the ropes, having Flair/Batista assist in abdominal stretches. Add to that he also had a very good moveset to build a match, was a very good seller of offence and was agile enough to hang with the likes of Mysterio and Benoit whilst having the size to wrestle as a believeable threat to Undertaker. He was also brilliantly versatile, whether he was a cocky shit (Edge Vengeance 04, Mysterio 06 matches), a guy working stiffer and more physical matches (Benoit matches 04-06) or working big time matches (Taker feud, Cena Summerslam 07) he excelled in each area.

Sad to see what he's become now. He's pretty much abandoned the mannerisms and subtle touches to his work, has become closer to Edge in terms of ludicrously bad 'facial expressions', has developed this dreary monotonous style of ring work (I swear to christ there was one match in 2010 where he legit spent close to one minute doing stomps to a guy's arm, hand, ankle, leg etc and then went for a kneedrop only to miss and I felt like 2 minutes of my life were just wasted for absolutely nothing) and for the life of him cannot make himself a good face in peril no matter how mechanically good he is at selling etc: he's just not someone who should be getting worked over and making the comeback: he should be the asskicker and then use his good selling of offence to be the base for a babyface's comeback. His viper esque writhing 'selling' just makes it so hard to get invested in his FIP spells compared to an Evan Bourne or Mysterio who fly around the ring and bump like madmen to get over the workover.

His matches may also be the worst example of a formula making it hard to continually watch a wrestler. All his setups just feel the same even if he does switch parts of his offence up, his clothesline combo and duck into backbreaker sequence may be the worst 'quickfire main event babyface comeback' in recent memory and I just find very little to actually enjoy in his matches: the offence never looks great or painful, his workover is never memorable because the way he bumps just removes any drama from the match, really the only thing I can say he does well now is finishing stretches since a lot of his signature offence works in a way that you can buy his opponent countering it before Orton actually hits the move, and in that sense some of his finishing stretches with Ziggler in particular feel chaotic and fast paced in a natural way.

Cena's 2007 is better for me than Orton's peak, though Orton was a far better character at the time and I totally get why he was probably the more watchable, especially because his cockiness and physique made for so many interesting match ups. Cena post 2007 is far and away the better of the two however. Orton had sporadic moments of his peak in 07 and 08, but post 2009 and the Viper character I legit can't think of too many matches of his I'd point to as being 'great', and trying to actually name Orton performances post 2009 that I think carry a match might be even harder. I found Christian better in the Over the Limit match, was more invested in Henry during their NOC match (though that might actually be Orton's best performance in a couple of years), thought Punk was the better guy in both of their PPV matches and brought more to the match through his mannerisms, facial expressions and match layout etc.
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