Ben Wyatt's Low Cal Calzone Zone
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Golfing with Stephen Hawking, he lied about his handicap. Didn't need a golf cart though, I just sat in his lap.
Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread
2 finishers each kicked out of is pretty tame for WWE main events, compare that to Taker/HHH, Taker/HHH, Austin/Rock, Angle/HBK, Savage/Hogan, Austin/Angle etc and it doesn't stand out as other-worldly. Also don't really see how the Rock Bottom being kicked out can necessarily be a 'finisher' kickout, its not Punk's move and its very rarely an opponent wins a match by using another wrestler's finisher (even when Jericho defeated Rock he had the belt shot to further weaken Rock) due to the kayfabe logic that certain wrestlers can execute a move in a more deadly sense than others: e.g Austin kicking out of the stunner, Taker kicking out of a tombstone, Rock kicking out a Rock Bottom etc. If the Rock hit a GTS in his next match would anyone actually buy it as the finish? Course you wouldn't, its done as a story/character element and in that sense added to the Punk/Cena match on a few levels: it was a subtle shot at Rock by Punk who knows he could be facing him at Royal Rumble & Cena kicking out of the move that beat him in the biggest match of his career was a nice callback and would have been a believeable false finish to his younger fans unaware of how stealing signature manouevres generally works in a wrestling match.
Also don't really see why Cena countering the GTS into the STF is necessarily apart of 'finisher abuse'. If countering submissions counts as abusing your finisher then Benoit had umpteen 'spam finisher' matches. Now I don't believe for a second that to be the best analogy, but you get my drift. To pick at both guys managing to counter the other's best submission at crucial moments seems a little odd imo, I can't argue with people arguing the kickouts were too much if that's their view, but I can't see how 2 counters can be used as an example of finisher whoring: surely spamming a submission finisher would involve the wrestler using it for a considerable amount of time and on a regular basis instead?
Anyways, the kickouts were fine, although I wished they could have spaced them out a little better and sold the damage in between, rather than getting one instance of Cena powering up too quickly to hit Punk with an AA. Finishers being kicked out of isn't a bad thing, but it has to be done in the right context and timed well enough to protect the move, Cena's AA hasn't been a credible automatic match finisher in a 'big' match for years now, HHH/HBK/Punk/Batista/Sheamus/Barrett (sure he kicked out of it at HIAC in 2010)/Orton etc have all kicked out of it enough for it to not come as a shock when it doesn't win a match. The key with WWE here is that its an automatic TV finisher and in most cases, should be an automatic PPV finisher unless the opponent is of around main event credibility. That allows it to always be viewed by many as a match ender (I didn't buy either AA beating Punk for the record, but in the PPV discussion thread it seems a shit-ton of folk bought the 2nd AA as the finish) despite it hardly being as well protected as the Hell's Gate or Taker's tombstone between 2004-2008 (pretty sure Edge at WM 24 was the first to kick out of the Tombstone since Taker returned with the Deadman Gimmick and used it regularly as a finisher back at Wrestlemania 20).
Punk's GTS as well has been incredibly well protected, to the point where prior to last night I can only recall Hardy back in 2009 (and tbf it wasn't as big a finisher as it has been since Punk's face turn), HHH (sure he kicked out of 1 at NOC a year ago) and Bryan at MITB as being the only people to kick out of it. Now I might be missing 1 or 2 people, but the point remains that its a largely well protected finisher aside from the biggest matches, to the point where Cena kicking out of two was a big deal. Now don't get me wrong I'd have preferred there to be a little downtime between the contact and the pin to at least further protect the move, rather than Cena kicking out TWICE after being instantly hit with the move.
Still, the finisher kickouts served a purpose, and had they been layed out a bit better and perhaps more thought gone into making the move look good without ending the match (Cena doing the out of the ring bump he did off the 1st GTS back at MITB 2011 for example was a great way to make it look deadly but serve as a reasonable reason for not ending the match) then it would have been a truly sensational finishing stretch. As it is, there's enough storytelling there to argue the kickouts meant something: Punk controlling the match in a way that resembled Cena's control in the middle half of the MITB bout only to grow more and more fearful with every kickout was a picture perfect way to play off of the build about Punk having to prove himself as well as turning the MITB match on its head, with Cena now working from the bottom and having to survive Punk's best offence in order to win the match. I never got the impression the finishing stretch wasn't needed, as you can often get in Indy/TNA matches where the kickouts don't feel nearly as important and monumental due to the little protection most finishers receive there, but it definitely didn't capture the MITB finishing stretch in terms of achieving a satisfactory balance between creating an enthralling nearfall dynamic whilst still retaining immense credibility in the respective finishers (moreso the GTS given Cena never kicked out of it during the match).
Last edited by WOOLCOCK; 09-17-2012 at 10:58 AM.