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post #6141 of 20560 (permalink) Old 09-17-2012, 12:53 AM
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Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Night of Champions 2012

Miz/Cara/Mysterio/Rhodes ***
Team Friendship/Kofi&Truth ***1/4
Cesaro/Ryder **
Orton/Ziggler ***1/2
Layla/Eve: **1/2
Sheamus/Del Rio: ***
Cena/Punk ****

Top 10 MOTY Now:

1) Punk vs. Bryan OTL- *****
2) Punk vs. Jericho WM28- ****1/2
3) Bryan vs. Sheamus ER- ****
4) Jericho vs. Punk ER- ****
5) Punk vs. Cena NOC- ****
6) Punk vs. Henry Raw 4/2/12- ****
7) Taker vs. HHH WM28- ****
8) Punk vs. Bryan vs. Kane NWO- ***3/4
9) Jericho vs. Orton vs. Sheamus vs. Del Rio- ***3/4
10) Punk vs. Ziggler RR- ***3/4

I'm watching you...

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post #6142 of 20560 (permalink) Old 09-17-2012, 12:54 AM
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Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Originally Posted by Yeah1993 View Post

Not a bad show at all. Is Michael Cole turning babyface?
i don't think so, probably they work in that way because JBL is a better heel and they had a heel/face dinamic before in SD

Also agree with the toughts of the Punk/Cena Match, they went totally overboard with the nearfalls, at the end it was annoying as heel

Would I write a book? Or should I take to the stage?

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post #6143 of 20560 (permalink) Old 09-17-2012, 02:25 AM
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Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Miz/Cara/Mysterio/Rhodes ** 1/2
Bryan&Kane/Kofi&Truth ***1/4
Cesaro/Ryder ** 1/2
Orton/Ziggler *** 1/2
Layla/Eve: **1/4
Sheamus/Del Rio: ** 1/2 (different ending would have brought this up a star)
Cena/Punk ****
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post #6144 of 20560 (permalink) Old 09-17-2012, 06:50 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Miz/Cara/Mysterio/Rhodes 1/2* (seriously this was fucking shit)
Team Friendship/Kofi&Truth ** (entertaining thanks to Bryan and Kane. Shame they didn't have anyone decent to work the match with)
Cesaro/Ryder ** (liked this a ton more than I expected considering my severe dislike towards Ryder)
Orton/Ziggler ***3/4 (loved this)
Layla/Eve: ** (this was... pretty good. Eve worked her character into the match wonderfully. Great wrestler? Not so much. Great performer? She seems to be getting there tbh)
Sheamus/Del Rio: *** (wasn't paying much attention to this one since on paper it bored the shit out of me. Looked waaay better than I was expecting from the bits I did pay attention to though)
Cena/Punk **** (this... wasn't what I was expecting from them tbh. That being said, I really enjoyed a lot of stuff they did. I might consider a re-watch and doing a write up on it at some point because there is a lot I want to say about it. Finish was a fuckload of shit though, and just how many finishers were there? Felt like at least 3 each. And it didn't feel like the kind of match that needed that. Excited about the rematch though, because yeah, its gonna fucking happen. Just please let Punk end this rivalry clean and on top).

Overall a super fun show to watch live. I wasn't gonna bother, but I got a link for a stream for Seabs, and ended up watching it. Then I said to myself "as soon as I get tired or really bored, I'll go to bed". Went to bed at 4am when it finished .
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post #6145 of 20560 (permalink) Old 09-17-2012, 09:38 AM
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Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Night of Champions:

Fatal Four Way - **1/4 (Very disappointing and slow. Plus not enough Cara/Mysterio interaction which I guess they're saving for Wrestlemania.)

Randy Orton vs Dolph Ziggler - ***1/4 (Pretty good match as usual between these two. Not their best but they did a great job nonetheless with a lot of back and forth action. Crowd was shit but the in-ring action was decent enough to cover up for it. Plus Orton's middle finger to them was epic!)

Sheamus vs Alberto Del Rio - *** (One of their better matches but still boring because it's been the third time in a row on PPV and Sheamus continues to rightfully go over clean which makes it too predictable.)

CM Punk vs John Cena - ***3/4 (Pretty good work by both men and also features some unusual stuff like Cena doing a suicide dive and Punk doing a greatly executed Crossface to his credit. Lacked the atmosphere of MITB and even SummerSlam but they were inspired enough to put on some great effort. There were some botches, though. Mainly the awkward Moonsault where Punk landed far away from Cena's position or the German Suplex being done too fast without Punk standing on the top turnbuckle for the best execution possible. And the finish was shit too but still the usual quality you get when these two work together.)

IDGAF about the rest but the backstage segment with Bryan and Kane was just pure gold! Oh, and JBL breathed some much needed life into the commentary booth when Lawler's horrible commentary is absent. (although I'm glad he's making a recovery, I hope he just retires for good now)
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post #6146 of 20560 (permalink) Old 09-17-2012, 09:46 AM
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Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Night of Champions 2012
1)The Miz VS Cody Rhodes VS Sin Cara VS Rey Mysterio ** - Slow and poor overally really. Watchable.

2)Antonio Cesaro VS Zack Ryder ** - Meh. Again, nothing special outside of Swiss Death which shoulda ended it

3)Daniel Bryan and Kane VS Kofi Kingston and R-Truth **1/2- Entertaining. But not a really good match.

4)Sheamus VS Alberto Del Rio ***1/4- Finally a match of theirs I enjoyed. I am hoping this ends their series though

5)Randy Orton VS Dolph Ziggler ***1/2- A good match from these guys. Not fully what they can do but put on a decent match none the less

6)CM Punk VS John Cena ****- Great match. I enjoyed it quite a bit, however Cena's continous kicking out of finishers was crazy. Loved the Rock Bottom spot and wished it ended there. Ending itself many hate, but I think it is OK. A heel will never beat Cena clean, Lesnar didn't even..., sad case as Punk really needs it but oh well. At least he retained.

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I call dibs on GTS, Pepsi Plunge and running knee in corner. I am sure Sheamus will take the rest.
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post #6147 of 20560 (permalink) Old 09-17-2012, 09:56 AM
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Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Looking at NearFall's signature just reminded me of one thing. There were FAR too many finishers used, specially towards the end.

GTS - kick out!
FU - kick out!
GTS - kick out!
FU - kick out!
GTS - countered into STF
STF - countered into Crossface
Anaconda Vice - countered into STF
Rock Bottom - kick out!

And on top of that, match didn't even end with a finisher. That brings it down a notch for me too.
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post #6148 of 20560 (permalink) Old 09-17-2012, 10:19 AM
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Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

I had even forgot about the 2 FUs lol. Punk was not made look particularly weak in that sense, especially with the STF too. But I can't help but shake the feeling that the Rock Bottom should have been saved for a match where Punk finally pins Cena, be it off distraction(actually, could have happened if they restarted the match as he walked over to Punk last night) or after foreign object. In order to set the tone. Having Cena just randomly kicking out dimished it for me. Then again, the whole "possession" of finishers applies, where the owner typically is stronger at it.

I think the tally of kicked out/escaped finishers was:


Cena: GTS,GTS,RockBottom,Anaconda Vice

Some numbers like that. Crazy.

Ryan Reeves ‏@Ryback22 2m
I call dibs on GTS, Pepsi Plunge and running knee in corner. I am sure Sheamus will take the rest.

Last edited by NearFall; 09-17-2012 at 10:34 AM.
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post #6149 of 20560 (permalink) Old 09-17-2012, 10:38 AM
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Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

The amount of finishers at the end of the match really hurt it for me. I'd give it **** but a better finishing stretch would have really helped.

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post #6150 of 20560 (permalink) Old 09-17-2012, 10:53 AM
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Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

2 finishers each kicked out of is pretty tame for WWE main events, compare that to Taker/HHH, Taker/HHH, Austin/Rock, Angle/HBK, Savage/Hogan, Austin/Angle etc and it doesn't stand out as other-worldly. Also don't really see how the Rock Bottom being kicked out can necessarily be a 'finisher' kickout, its not Punk's move and its very rarely an opponent wins a match by using another wrestler's finisher (even when Jericho defeated Rock he had the belt shot to further weaken Rock) due to the kayfabe logic that certain wrestlers can execute a move in a more deadly sense than others: e.g Austin kicking out of the stunner, Taker kicking out of a tombstone, Rock kicking out a Rock Bottom etc. If the Rock hit a GTS in his next match would anyone actually buy it as the finish? Course you wouldn't, its done as a story/character element and in that sense added to the Punk/Cena match on a few levels: it was a subtle shot at Rock by Punk who knows he could be facing him at Royal Rumble & Cena kicking out of the move that beat him in the biggest match of his career was a nice callback and would have been a believeable false finish to his younger fans unaware of how stealing signature manouevres generally works in a wrestling match.

Also don't really see why Cena countering the GTS into the STF is necessarily apart of 'finisher abuse'. If countering submissions counts as abusing your finisher then Benoit had umpteen 'spam finisher' matches. Now I don't believe for a second that to be the best analogy, but you get my drift. To pick at both guys managing to counter the other's best submission at crucial moments seems a little odd imo, I can't argue with people arguing the kickouts were too much if that's their view, but I can't see how 2 counters can be used as an example of finisher whoring: surely spamming a submission finisher would involve the wrestler using it for a considerable amount of time and on a regular basis instead?

Anyways, the kickouts were fine, although I wished they could have spaced them out a little better and sold the damage in between, rather than getting one instance of Cena powering up too quickly to hit Punk with an AA. Finishers being kicked out of isn't a bad thing, but it has to be done in the right context and timed well enough to protect the move, Cena's AA hasn't been a credible automatic match finisher in a 'big' match for years now, HHH/HBK/Punk/Batista/Sheamus/Barrett (sure he kicked out of it at HIAC in 2010)/Orton etc have all kicked out of it enough for it to not come as a shock when it doesn't win a match. The key with WWE here is that its an automatic TV finisher and in most cases, should be an automatic PPV finisher unless the opponent is of around main event credibility. That allows it to always be viewed by many as a match ender (I didn't buy either AA beating Punk for the record, but in the PPV discussion thread it seems a shit-ton of folk bought the 2nd AA as the finish) despite it hardly being as well protected as the Hell's Gate or Taker's tombstone between 2004-2008 (pretty sure Edge at WM 24 was the first to kick out of the Tombstone since Taker returned with the Deadman Gimmick and used it regularly as a finisher back at Wrestlemania 20).

Punk's GTS as well has been incredibly well protected, to the point where prior to last night I can only recall Hardy back in 2009 (and tbf it wasn't as big a finisher as it has been since Punk's face turn), HHH (sure he kicked out of 1 at NOC a year ago) and Bryan at MITB as being the only people to kick out of it. Now I might be missing 1 or 2 people, but the point remains that its a largely well protected finisher aside from the biggest matches, to the point where Cena kicking out of two was a big deal. Now don't get me wrong I'd have preferred there to be a little downtime between the contact and the pin to at least further protect the move, rather than Cena kicking out TWICE after being instantly hit with the move.

Still, the finisher kickouts served a purpose, and had they been layed out a bit better and perhaps more thought gone into making the move look good without ending the match (Cena doing the out of the ring bump he did off the 1st GTS back at MITB 2011 for example was a great way to make it look deadly but serve as a reasonable reason for not ending the match) then it would have been a truly sensational finishing stretch. As it is, there's enough storytelling there to argue the kickouts meant something: Punk controlling the match in a way that resembled Cena's control in the middle half of the MITB bout only to grow more and more fearful with every kickout was a picture perfect way to play off of the build about Punk having to prove himself as well as turning the MITB match on its head, with Cena now working from the bottom and having to survive Punk's best offence in order to win the match. I never got the impression the finishing stretch wasn't needed, as you can often get in Indy/TNA matches where the kickouts don't feel nearly as important and monumental due to the little protection most finishers receive there, but it definitely didn't capture the MITB finishing stretch in terms of achieving a satisfactory balance between creating an enthralling nearfall dynamic whilst still retaining immense credibility in the respective finishers (moreso the GTS given Cena never kicked out of it during the match).

Last edited by WOOLCOCK; 09-17-2012 at 10:58 AM.
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