Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread - Page 507 - Wrestling Forum : WWE, TNA, ROH, Wrestling Videos, Women of Wrestling Forums
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Old 08-20-2012, 05:49 PM   #5061 (permalink)
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Yes...and then Cena won. Then he acted like he would be gone for a bit...and then he came out the next night smiling like nothing happened. Brock was an unstoppable monster until he got beat. Him going over HHH gives him a lot of much needed momentum back but it's still always going to be in the back of everybody's mind that he can be stopped because Cena was able to find a way to beat him even after getting the shit kicked out of him the entire time. HHH got more offense in than Cena and he couldn't beat him. HHH managed to work over Lesnar's one weak spot and he couldn't beat him. cena gets his ass handed to him and wins with 2 moves at the end. I hate to sound like the typical Cena hater when I say that because I'm a huge Cena mark but I can't get past that.
That doesn't make the actual finish shit, just the execution of the follow-up. If Cena takes time off and sells the beating Lesnar unleashed on him Lesnar looks like the baddest mofo on the planet. Wins and losses mean little if Lesnar wrestled and beat everyone of his opponents the way he did to Cena that night, Miz could have a two year unbeaten streak and Lesnar could lose every big match he's involved in for a year and all it would take is him to wrestle like he did at ER and no-one would care.

Cena winning was a good move. He was going to get a win on Lesnar whether it was there or at the culmination of the feud, at least this way Lesnar was allowed to look almost unbeatable but just naiive enough to be outsmarted. Lesnar losing and then re-focusing and becoming an even more dangerous monster in of itself could have worked, and with Lesnar's skills, look and presence you do not have to worry about him looking like just another guy. You said yourself the minute you watched the match you just got caught up in the presence of the man and just had this eerie feeling HHH was fucked, that's something Lesnar alone possesses.

Cena winning with a quick comeback protected Lesnar, he lost because he was almost concussed and pinned shortly afterwards. If he'd have had to bump repeatedly for 2-3 minutes then I'd agree with it being a bad finish that cut his balls off. Instead he unleashed a beating and performance unlike anything I have ever seen in a WWE ring, and was protected enough that Cena looked like he just got incredibly lucky off of his own perseverance rather than out-classing Lesnar.

If Lesnar hadn't been allowed to look so scarily dominant I'd agree the loss could have killed him, as I said him losing to HHH last night would have been disastrous because HHH didn't make him look nearly as terrifying and dangerous as Cena did. Brock's performance however was so incredibly memorable that the finish could never kill him. It just made Cena look like a tough SOB the company could be glad to call on, everything after the match sucked admittedly but that doesn't make the actual finish in that point in time 'awful'. It just makes WWE's followup piss poor.

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Originally Posted by Choke2Death View Post
That only further made the finish SuperCena. After all the elbows and abuse he took, Cena should not have even been able to stand up. Yet, his shitty steel chain (why was it brought back just to make two appearances, anyways?) and a crappy FU on the steel steps was enough to beat this monster heel. By far the worst finish in a match EVER. Even worse than Cena's other superman comebacks and Hornswoggle winning any match.
Sweet jesus, so do you want Lesnar to never lose? Because I tell you now there is no way on earth Lesnar will ever be allowed to look as good as he did that night. Would you complain this much if Rock or Taker beat him in a much less violent and tame match?

Super-Cena is when Cena just kills a guy dead, Miz dominated the match and was bitched out needlessly. Cena however sold his fucking arse off in the ER match, his comeback was built to as well as its ever been and it came off as Cena being a tough SOB refusing to die, rather than running around like he hadn't been touched. Watch how he crawls into the ring and utilises his facial expressions to convey the desperation in his eyes to finish Lesnar off. He sold that beating as something he had to overcome, but something which had left him in agony. Part of what hurt Miz is that despite controlling the majority of the match, he never really looked like much of a threat, which is where having Cena kill him dead makes him look even more of a joke.

Lesnar looked terrifying and a legit MONSTER, that was one of the most memorable performances and matches in years. The aftermath with Cena not taking time off and resetting back to his stale happy go lucky character ruined what potential that feud and finish had, but it doesn't make that finish the worst of all time and you're insane if you think that's comparable to a standard Cena TV match finish. The beating, the struggle, the selling, the bumping that went into that comeback made it an incredible comeback, does Eddie still standing at Judgement Day 2004 defy belief? Yes, but his performance, selling and build to his comeback makes it so memorable and valiant in spite of how logically he should have been dead.

Seriously how do you want Lesnar to lose a match in WWE? Because I guarantee you he won't ever be allowed to brutalise anyone like he did against Cena, and that will certainly lessen his aura when he's forced to work and lose more of a standard match compared to that once in a lifetime fight he had against Cena.

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Old 08-20-2012, 05:54 PM   #5062 (permalink)
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You're never going to change my mind about this lol. I hate the finish, I think it was stupid and it shouldn't have happened. All the what ifs in the world don't change the fact that they had pure gold with Lesnar and rather than actually use that to give Cena direction, he won and they pissed it away as usual. I also don't see why Cena would have eventually got a win at some stage during their feud if it was just a 1 match deal and even if that's the case, you don't have the face win the first match and then have the heel doing the chase to see if he can overcome the babyface. Brock Lesnar trying to over come John Cena? That's wrong on so many levels.
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Old 08-20-2012, 06:03 PM   #5063 (permalink)
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Agree with everyone who has stated that Lesnar's mere presence in the ring is second to none. It's even more ominous a feeling than an Undertaker match in this day and age. When Lesnar comes to the ring you get a feeling of discomfort knowing that the opponent is about to get the shit knocked out of him. He's the only member of the roster that elicits that kind of feeling. He justifies that aura with the subtle (yet awesome) facial expressions/grins/intangibles (licking the blood off his gloves against Cena, bouncing up after taking a ridiculous plunge over the top rope against Cena, taking the gloves off before beating the shit out of HHH, etc). It's a big part of why these Lesnar main events are so different from anything we have ever seen in the WWE, including Lesnar's first go-around a decade ago. The guy comes off as inhuman for the most part, which is another reason why HHH finding Lesnar's weakness almost by accident when he launched Lesnar stomach first into the corner of the announce table was a superb touch (magnified by Lesnar's impeccable selling).
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Old 08-20-2012, 06:04 PM   #5064 (permalink)
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Of course Cena would have got a win back, if you want Lesnar to cripple Cena and take him off of TV you logically build to Cena's return and have him finally defeat the monster once and for all. No way in hell they'd just have Cena lose and not try to milk a dramatic rematch and have him finally regain his heat and come out of the feud looking even better.

Lesnar coming back, quickly becoming #1 contender and then beating the shit out of Cena but ultimately winning would have been a great angle. Makes Lesnar look even better since everyone expected Cena to overcome the odds again, and assuming they would have worked the match similar to ER Lesnar would have looked incredible brutalising Cena but this time getting the win. I appreciate people wanted Lesnar to just be some unbeatabale monster before losing at Wrestlemania and going home, but at the end of the day Rock or Taker beating him would never have been as good. Firstly Lesnar could never have that sort of match as he did with Cena against either of them, which would have meant a more standard and regulation WWE style match, and with Lesnar losing off of a Rock Bottom/Tombstone. At least with Cena he managed to be protected with the NO DQ stipulation, and looked as good as he ever could look on offence.

I appreciate people wanted him to win, but calling the worst finish of all time? That's just asinine and I swear to christ there is no way The Rock or The Undertaker will ever be able to beat Lesnar convincingly and make him look as good as he did at ER. He didn't look nearly as dominant at Summerslam, and that's where him losing would have really been detrimental to his aura.
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Old 08-20-2012, 06:08 PM   #5065 (permalink)
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Lesnar just might be the most physically intimidating person ever lol. He just looks fucking scary, like he could kill you at any second. I don't know if this is appropriate or not but I'm kind of in love with his aura. Did I just type that? Lol.

For the record, I have no problem with Lesnar losing a match, just not his first one back after 10 years in such a ridiculous fashion. He was everything Caida says he was...until he got beat.
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Old 08-20-2012, 06:14 PM   #5066 (permalink)
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Yeah I love his aura, too. It portrays a certain mystique that hasn't been seen in this sport in, well...forever. I've never felt uncomfortable watching a match before (aside from maybe Taker/Foley HIAC), but I get a certain feeling that something is going to go wrong (and I don't mean a botch, but a serious injury due to Lesnar's stiff/out of control mentality) every time he steps in a 2012 ring.
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Old 08-20-2012, 06:17 PM   #5067 (permalink)
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Yeah I love his aura, too. It portrays a certain mystique that hasn't been seen in this sport in, well...forever. I've never felt uncomfortable watching a match before (aside from maybe Taker/Foley HIAC), but I get a certain feeling that something is going to go wrong (and I don't mean a botch, but a serious injury due to Lesnar's stiff/out of control mentality) every time he steps in a 2012 ring.
Same. When he took those gloves off last night I legit thought he was going to fuck HHH up lol.
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Old 08-20-2012, 06:18 PM   #5068 (permalink)
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Sweet jesus, so do you want Lesnar to never lose? Because I tell you now there is no way on earth Lesnar will ever be allowed to look as good as he did that night. Would you complain this much if Rock or Taker beat him in a much less violent and tame match?

Super-Cena is when Cena just kills a guy dead, Miz dominated the match and was bitched out needlessly. Cena however sold his fucking arse off in the ER match, his comeback was built to as well as its ever been and it came off as Cena being a tough SOB refusing to die, rather than running around like he hadn't been touched. Watch how he crawls into the ring and utilises his facial expressions to convey the desperation in his eyes to finish Lesnar off. He sold that beating as something he had to overcome, but something which had left him in agony. Part of what hurt Miz is that despite controlling the majority of the match, he never really looked like much of a threat, which is where having Cena kill him dead makes him look even more of a joke.

Lesnar looked terrifying and a legit MONSTER, that was one of the most memorable performances and matches in years. The aftermath with Cena not taking time off and resetting back to his stale happy go lucky character ruined what potential that feud and finish had, but it doesn't make that finish the worst of all time and you're insane if you think that's comparable to a standard Cena TV match finish. The beating, the struggle, the selling, the bumping that went into that comeback made it an incredible comeback, does Eddie still standing at Judgement Day 2004 defy belief? Yes, but his performance, selling and build to his comeback makes it so memorable and valiant in spite of how logically he should have been dead.

Seriously how do you want Lesnar to lose a match in WWE? Because I guarantee you he won't ever be allowed to brutalise anyone like he did against Cena, and that will certainly lessen his aura when he's forced to work and lose more of a standard match compared to that once in a lifetime fight he had against Cena.
If Lesnar is supposed to lose a match, I want it to be an even match like the one with HHH. I don't care about how strong he looks, if he's going to lose, I don't want them to force this "never give up" crap down my throat with Cena or anyone else for that matter. What kind of a monster is Lesnar when his 20 minutes of offense that leaves Cena laid out in a pool of his own blood is not good enough to keep him down for a three count but this huge monster is beatable by TWO FUCKING MOVES?

And the match with Brock IS SuperCena, even a bigger example of it than "I Quit" or his TV matches because the beating he takes is EVEN WORSE than usual. And if we wanna talk about the aftermath with him running around like he never had a finger laid on him, then the same can be said for the Brock match, except he had a bit of blood on his face but still had enough energy to smile and cut a phony promo about leaving. The comeback was just typical superhero bullshit, only difference being that he took a beating so bad that even his haters started feeling sorry for him. (Not me, though, Lesnar could have legit knocked him out cold and I wouldn't have any sympathy for this unbearable green goof) And the Eddie match is not really comparable since the excessive blood loss was never meant to happen. Cena was meant to crawl around, bloodied, trying anything for a break away from the monster villain, except all of that was for nothing since he just had to perform two moves flawlessly to overcome the odds.
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Old 08-20-2012, 06:40 PM   #5069 (permalink)
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Lesnar V Cena ER ****1/4

Lesnar V HHH SS *

I liked Lesnar V Cena a little more.
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Old 08-20-2012, 06:44 PM   #5070 (permalink)
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If Lesnar is supposed to lose a match, I want it to be an even match like the one with HHH. I don't care about how strong he looks, if he's going to lose, I don't want them to force this "never give up" crap down my throat with Cena or anyone else for that matter. What kind of a monster is Lesnar when his 20 minutes of offense that leaves Cena laid out in a pool of his own blood is not good enough to keep him down for a three count but this huge monster is beatable by TWO FUCKING MOVES?

And the match with Brock IS SuperCena, even a bigger example of it than "I Quit" or his TV matches because the beating he takes is EVEN WORSE than usual. And if we wanna talk about the aftermath with him running around like he never had a finger laid on him, then the same can be said for the Brock match, except he had a bit of blood on his face but still had enough energy to smile and cut a phony promo about leaving. The comeback was just typical superhero bullshit, only difference being that he took a beating so bad that even his haters started feeling sorry for him. (Not me, though, Lesnar could have legit knocked him out cold and I wouldn't have any sympathy for this unbearable green goof) And the Eddie match is not really comparable since the excessive blood loss was never meant to happen. Cena was meant to crawl around, bloodied, trying anything for a break away from the monster villain, except all of that was for nothing since he just had to perform two moves flawlessly to overcome the odds.

Ok, so you want Brock to lose to a near 50 year old Undertaker at Wrestlemania. Lesnar won't be able to look anywhere near as terrifying or dominating due to Taker's horrific injury riddled body, and he'll be confined to working a standard WWE match where he'll be relying entirely on his size to look credible. Taker will beat him after maybe 3 tombstones. Verdict: Lesnar still supposedly looks like a monster.

You want Brock to lose to a 40 year old below semi-regular guy like The Rock. Lesnar won't be able to look anywhere near as physical or impressive, and the match will be a tame WWE style match with nothing but signature moves. Rock hits a Rock Bottom and a People's Elbow and Lesnar the monster is tamed. Verdict: Lesnar still looks like a monster.

Brock bloodies, batters and decimates the company ace in a 20 minute violent spectacle unlike anything ever presented before us in a WWE ring. He licks blood onto his gloves, takes near neck breaking bumps, nearly separates Cena's shoulder, hits stiff as fuck germans, lariats and knees to the ribs, Cena is a bloody and limp mess barely able to stand. Cena heroically fights back and desperately lands a steel chain shot to the head and hits his finisher onto Steel Steps. Verdict: LESNAR GOT BURRIED. HE LOOKS LIKE TOTAL SHIT. SUPERCENA STRIKES AGAIN!!!!


That's the impression I get from you, and its insane. Lesnar looked legitimate, ferocious and dominating. He lost via Cena getting lucky, not because Cena no-sold the entire beating, or beat Lesnar's ass with relative ease. But because Cena in the space of 30 seconds managed to temporarily injure Brock and capitalise. Because unlike Lesnar, Cena wanted the win at any cost, whereas Lesnar had a blatant pin on Cena but with the ref down and him being more concerned with hurting Cena, didn't capitalise and win the match.

The Rock got beaten for 20 straight minutes by 5 men at Backlash 2000. Austin takes everyone out and suddenly Rock hits a spinebuster and springs magically for a people's elbow. OMG HHH IS BURRIED BECAUSE ROCK GOT LIKE 5% OFFENCE IN AND SOMEHOW WON!!! Wrong, Rock sold his ass off and they built his courage wonderfully and it came off as him realising this was a now or never opportunity thanks to Austin, and despite the injury he capitalised through sheer will.

Eddie Guerrero lost nearly a pint of blood at Judgement Day 2004. He could barely stand or perform his moves with any degree of accuracy, but somehow manages to muster enough resilience to wrestle nearly 15 more minutes and end the match on top of JBL. OMG JBL BURRIED, EDDIE WAS DAMN NEAR UNCONSCIOUS AND HE STILL COULDN'T PIN HIM!!!! Wrong, Eddie's performance was heroic and encapsulated his character. JBL looked dominant and on top, but Eddie somehow managed to find the strength to capitalise and brutalise JBL in return.

John Cena gets the shit beaten out of him for 20 minutes, he bleeds off of elbow strikes, gets kneed stiffly in the ribs, takes big bumps off of stiff lariats and german suplexes. Has his arm torn apart by the devastating kimura. He hits one desperation deadlift powerslam counter to remind his fans his opponent despite being a monster is still human, and that Cena can pull out a victory. Eventually the motherfucking monster damn near kills himself on a botched dive but still walks away wounded but still dominating, Cena realises he has one opportunity and with everything he has left suckers Lesnar into making a rash error. Once Brock is down, Cena crawls valiantly, he sells the blood loss and battered body, he holds his arm limp and gets himself ready to put away this monster. He cannot take much more, its now or never. He hits the finisher and wins, a valiant and heroic effort and it takes everything he had left in him to captialise on one error and win the match before Lesnar could regroup. OMG LESNAR IS JUST ANOTHER GUY!!!! Wrong, Cena's comeback was 20 minutes in the making, he went through hell and back, he was beaten, brutalised and could barely stand. But he wasn't done just yet, he had one opportunity, he's the company ace and just like every other top babyface in wrestling history he can pull a victory from the clutches of defeat. His opponent put in arguably the most devastating performance in company history, he looked like a legitimate monster of which we'd never seen. But after all, everyone can be beat.

Cena's comeback, like Eddie's and Rock's was built on selling, the pacing, getting little to no offence in but displaying emotion, selling and bumping like a madman and making his eventual comeback a do or die scenario. Rock, Cena and Eddie should never have been able to avoid defeat, but they managed to make quick comebacks which came off as everything they had left, they didn't no sell or run around looking fresh as a daisy, they built to a point in the match where they would finally have one shot to try and beat their opponent. And each one of them managed to take that opportunity, this wasn't some 7 minute TV match where they get briefly worked over. These comebacks were milked, they were hard earned, they were fought for, they were the difference between elation and despair.

And that is why they were excellent comebacks, and why their opponents managed to not look like total idiots. Each of their opponents prior to the finish were made to look legitimate, hateable and almost unbeatable, they were made to look larger than life and thus they managed to overcome the loss and come out the other end ok. People like Miz who couldn't look terrifying if their lives depended on it need great booking to not be killed by these superhuman comebacks, Miz's offence was nowhere near the level of Lesnar's, shit it wasn't even in the same stratosphere. He also has 0.0000000001% of Lesnar's aura and presence, and that is why The I Quit match was a shit finish, and why Lesnar/Cena was everything a babyface comeback should be.

You don't have to like it, but to compare that comeback to a standard sub 10 minute TV match comeback, where the selling, beating, bumping, build and emotion isn't even close to what Lesnar and Cena created in Chicago is painfully ignorant and astounding.

RANT OVER.
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