Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread - Page 479 - Wrestling Forum : WWE, TNA, Debate League, Wrestling Videos, Women of Wrestling Forums
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Old 08-13-2012, 06:52 PM   #4781 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by K1ngOfK1ngs View Post
Just PLOUGHING my way through these PPV WWE Championship matches lately , and found some matches that I like/dislike that might vastly differentiate from what others think.

For instance , I believe that the Barrett-Orton series (Bragging Rights 10 , Survivor Series 10) are two * 3/4 that show how flawed of a main event player Barrett is, unless paired with somebody who plays to his strengths like John Cena. Just so much bland offense with a horrible pace and little story being told. If it wasn't for the whole CENA dynamic being somewhat interesting, this would be like one snowflake from me.

On the other hand, I have Diesel-Mabel from Summerslam 95 at ** 1/2 , WAAAAYYYYY higher than anybody else in the universe. Just a fun, less than 10 minutes long match with lots of power and a surprisingly fast pace. The move differentiation isn't very wide, but what exactly do you expect between Diesel and Mabel ? I'm also not NEARLY as high on the Orton-Cena series as everyone else seems to be. I like the SS 07 match, and I still have to watch the SS 09, NWO 08, and UNF 07 matches , but I have BP 09 at *** 1/4 (Seen some people giving it four plus) , the Ironman match at ***, and the HIAC match at ** 3/4. I think the WWE tries to force how epic these two are , down our throats. Both men have much, much better opponents.
Quoted for fucking truth.

The fact of the matter is that yeah, they're the two most successful stars since the attitude era, but that doesn't stop them having shit chemistry and that doesn't stop them from being completely bland and boring when thrown together. I can't remember what Royal Rumble it was, but when they went face to face and it was just them and the crowd just shat on it - It couldn't have proved how boring these two are together more perfectly. I've watched all of their matches together and the only one that I'd ever consider watching is their BP match but I wouldn't necessarily CHOOSE to watch it over other matches
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Old 08-13-2012, 06:53 PM   #4782 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Oh man I fucking LOVED that RR moment where they tried the old Rock/Austin staredown and the fans didn't react in the slightest. Burst out laughing at like, 3am in the morning watching it live. Woke my dad up.
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Old 08-13-2012, 06:57 PM   #4783 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Is Orton really the 2nd most successful star of the era though? There are stars who overlapped both eras (Jericho, Edge didn't really become singles material until later on in his career, Lesnar, Batista) who I'd argue are bigger names.

For instance, to me, Cena/Batista is a bigger WM main event than Cena/Orton.
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Old 08-13-2012, 07:43 PM   #4784 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

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I was live for NWO 08 which probably made the match better in my eyes than it truly was. Even though DQ finishes are becoming more and more commonplace/annoying, Orton slapping the shit out of the referee was hilarious. Crowd was great for that match, too.
Definitely the prized jewel in their series, though Summerslam 2007 is awfully close to overtaking it as their best outing. Generally I find them to have solid chemistry, in that I can't remember them having unwatchable matches, and with the right storyline and booking they've had two great matches and one very good match with a super Orton performance (Breaking Point 2009) whilst the rest have sort of stayed in 'unspectacular' territory.

Still that look in Orton's eyes and waiting for Cena to see him deck the referee was just Heel 101. Orton peaked during 2004-2006 as the cocky youngster and would never surpass that period of his career ring or character wise.

Like the HBK/HHH feud (which just would not END, the HIAC is still one of the hardest matches to sit through) WWE just tried miserably to make it out to be greater than it actually was, and the constant hot-shotting of the belt and constant rematches were just tiring by the fall of 2009.
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Old 08-13-2012, 08:05 PM   #4785 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

I actually think a lot of people underrate the HBK/HHH HIAC by quite a bit.

I agree that Orton/Cena would've been a fine feud had they not built it up to be something it could never possibly live up to be (Austin/Rock v.2).
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Old 08-13-2012, 08:15 PM   #4786 (permalink)
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I think like most WWE Main Event style 'epics' its a match which can divide a lot of folk, when done right it can be beautiful (HBK/Taker II, Austin/Hart, HBK/Taker HIAC) and then other times it can be overly forced (HBK/HHH HIAC, Austin/HHH NWO 2/3 falls etc). For me seeing them do standard wrestling for the beginning of the match when it was portrayed as the feud ender to end all feuds was poorly done, and then between the big spots, slow pace and selling on the mat I just found it to be a badly done attempt at creating a MOTYC. I actually feel their best matches are the ones where they work a more simpler and structured match without stipulations and trying to make the match legendary, i.e the December '03 Raw match in San Antonio and I think a match at Taboo Tuesday/Cyber Sunday where HBK has an injured leg and they work a shorter match around HHH dissecting the leg and building up HBK's comeback.
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Old 08-13-2012, 08:18 PM   #4787 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

I know for a fact that match divides a lot of people. However, most are in love with HHH/Austin NWO. You didn't like that match? That was ***** for most.
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Old 08-13-2012, 08:25 PM   #4788 (permalink)
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Whilst I understand why its popular, I think the 2/3 falls aspect hurt them. The first fall irritates me because its barely wrestled like a feud ender/grudge match should be (this only becomes more apparent the more Memphis, Lucha and Mid South I watch, where brawling was done as well as I've ever seen it) with some bi-polar limbwork from HHH, Austin strangely selling as well as Gil from The Simpsons and then a really lazily done finish to the first fall. I just think it pales in comparison to a lot of brawls (Lawler/Mantell, Lawler/Dundee, Lawler/Funk, Funk/Flair, Funk/Hansen) and then after the tame opening fall they have to shoot their load in the second fall and they utilise a number of weapons and spots I think would have been better served for the final fall. By the end of the third fall there's steel chair shots to the skull being sold as nothing more than bodyslams and the crowd seem very quiet and don't react to things like the barbed wire bat in a way they did in brawls which were paced a lot better (HHH/Cactus for a recent comparison).

I just think the strange opening fall meant they had to overcompensate in the second fall and as a result things didn't seem to flow as well as I hoped. I really question the need for the 2/3 falls aspect and think a straight one fall match would have served them far better pacing wise. I do adore the finish though as the perfect lead in to Austin's breakdown at Wrestlemania and forcing him to question whether he is still the man.

There was an excellent review of it by a user on here in the old DVD thread, will have to try and search it because he examined the flaws in the match tremendously.

I do accept though why others don't take issue with some of the things I do, just further clarifies the diverse tastes wrestling fans have.
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Old 08-13-2012, 08:30 PM   #4789 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

The selling does bother me quite a bit, but overall I thought it didn't hurt the match much. I personally don't think it's ***** as some others have stated, but it's definitely up there. I'd have to watch it again (been a few years) in order to analyze it in depth like you have.
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Old 08-13-2012, 08:44 PM   #4790 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Finally tracked down the review, when I came across it at first I too was thinking whether he'd watched the same match. Then I watched it and a lot of the things he discussed I couldn't defend, a good example of an in depth review making me question a favourite of mine. Plus the older and more wrestling I've watched my tastes have differed and evolved. I'd rank the match a bit higher than him, but I agree with near enough everything he says:

Quote:
Triple H vs. Steve Austin, 2/3 Falls, WWF 2/25/01


The first fall is a freaking mess, with both guys obviously killing time so they can get to the weapons. Triple H busts out a neckbreaker three times, Austin busts out the Thesz press three times, one of which is botched. Triple H can't focus in on anything, dancing between the neck and the leg. The lack of focus is compounded with Austin's total lack of desire to sell any of it, making it worse. When Triple H finally settles in on the leg work, it's long and not very interesting. Austin's up two seconds later running around like he's Sonjay Dutt, so it makes you wonder why they even bothered. We got some hot brawling in this to start off, but once they got through the first lap around the ring, it got obvious really quick that they didn't really plan to do much here. I wouldn't call it BAD as much as it was completely hot-dogged.

The second fall bordered on ridiculous and killed the heat for the third fall. We've got Austin doing his crazy chair shots thing only for Triple H to be up and at 'em a minute later. Jesus. From here, they just completely start smashing through weapons spots, kicking out of chair DDT's, bell shots, multiple chair shots, monitor shots, sledge hammer shots, etc. Half of this stuff should've been saved for the last fall, but they've completely burnt through it in one fall. They couldn't come up with enough stuff to fill up the non-spotty first fall and over stuffed the second fall which leaves me completely befuddled as to what they're going to do in the third. And why is Triple H selling the arm work all of a sudden on the table bump? He was swinging sledge hammers and chairs around like Hank Aaron two minutes earlier. Talk about selective.

The third fall is a testament to how crappy the first two falls were. Austin's no selling straight chair shots, still. These two are completely at a loss now, as they're using the barbed wire bat as a rest hold almost and even more worrisome, the crowd is totally sitting on it's hands. And they should be. If DDT's on chairs and sledge hammer shots aren't pinning either one of these guys in past falls, I don't know why they would in this fall. The barebd wire spots get zero reaction, the subsequent near falls get zero reaction, the finisher trading gets a LITTLE reacton, but shockingly mum for a feud with this much heat heading in and where they are in the match. They come up with an uber contrived finish to overly protect both guys and I'm wondering the fuck I thought this was any good.

This is such a weird match. Thanks in part to losing the crowd, they over comensate in the second and as a result, lose the crowd anyways. Just not interesting. I'm frustrated because I REMEMBER adoring this match and REALLY wanting to like it. I don't even think this is 'average'. I MIGHT have this at **1/2 because i'm in denial. But that might be generous.
A follow up argument from him on WWF/E brawls which I also whole-heartedly agree with:

Quote:
I'd have probably started off with the street fight and really let them brawl. I can't even comprehend why they'd bother going to neck and leg work. This is a hate fest. Best off keeping it a wild brawl keep it under 20 minutes, go fast and furious and go home. I feel like the WWE in particular, go way too long with their big blow off matches. You watch the fantastic Lawler brawls back in the 80s, I don't think one of them goes past 20 minutes, most of them in fact, don't even go past 15 minutes. Still, they manage to pack all the hate and wildness into the time frame and make it entirely satisfying... I wish they'd consider that here as it's obvious outside of the great first 2-3 minutes and the weapons spots, that they didn't have much worked out.
I wish that guy still posted around here, he seemed to have a great grasp of old school territories wrestling as well as the current product.
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