Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread - Page 470 - Wrestling Forum : WWE, TNA, ROH, Wrestling Videos, Women of Wrestling Forums
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Old 08-11-2012, 06:53 PM   #4691 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Triple H PPV Matches : The List (Top Two)

2. vs Shawn Michaels vs Chris Benoit WM XX
1. vs Cactus Jack RR 00

Need I say more ? Number one is self explanatory, while number 2 is the greatest triple threat match and second greatest main event in Wrestlemania history IMO. RR 00 is Foley's best match , whilst the Wrestlemania triple threat is Benoit's best match with the WWE and a top 5 HBK match.

This was ALOT of fun to do. So much fun that I wanted to start another project immediately after I finished this one... So I'm going to finally reveal what I've been up to lately : Ranking every single WWE Championship match in PPV history. There are currently 232, but I've only got 130 matches to review ( majority are rewatches ) and I've been going CRAZY at this lately. I'm going to figure out alot during this ; I'm also going to rank the title reigns based on match quality at the end as well... This is going to be a BIG one.
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Old 08-11-2012, 06:59 PM   #4692 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Segunda Caida View Post

Citing flaws in both matches doesn't make them flawed, it just serves to demonstrate the difference in opinion in what people constitute to be a great match. What I enjoy you may well find boring, simplistic, un-entertaining and no matter how much I disagree with you I cannot conclusively illustrate you to be wrong.
Yep, personal preference. I appreciate reading posts from Segunda, Cal and others that point out the structure or lack of structure in Kurt Angle match or a multi-man ladder match that I may love to pieces. It would be so boring if we all had the same tastes for every single acclaimed match, especially on the mainstream level. My eyes have been opened to so many other wrestlers and matches because of these posters and while my preferences haven't changed much over the years I will read a good write-up (positive or negative) on a match any day.
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Old 08-11-2012, 07:01 PM   #4693 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Segunda Caida View Post
Its not about thinking too deep in the slightest, whilst some people watch purely for the characters and the entertainment others watch for entirely different reasons. People see classic matches from the territory days and see the brilliance in storytelling and simplistic wrestling and then struggle to comprehend how modern day matches have evolved into something entirely different.

Citing flaws in both matches doesn't make them flawed, it just serves to demonstrate the difference in opinion in what people constitute to be a great match. What I enjoy you may well find boring, simplistic, un-entertaining and no matter how much I disagree with you I cannot conclusively illustrate you to be wrong.

The key is to accept these opinions and argue why what we consider flaws you consider to be beneficial to the match, rather than attempting to comprehend how someone can form this particular opinion.

Just my two cents.
Your reference to modern day matches... just makes me confused a little bit. I've watched matches from the territory days. I enjoyed a lot of these matches. I can see the difference in a Flair/Race, Flair/Rhodes from a HHH/HBK, Austin/Rock, etc.... and that's where I get confused.

I like the idea of understanding the psyche of other wrestling fans. I like to look at this business from as many angles as possible. So, that's my reason for asking quite a few times, what matches do you guys consider as not being flawed, just to gain perspective on your opinion. That's the beauty of wrestling and being a fan
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Old 08-11-2012, 07:23 PM   #4694 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Well what I consider not to be flawed is incredibly broad, do you mean PPV epics? TV matches? Sub ten minute sprints?

There really is no devolution of a good/great match. I'm not saying Kurt Angle needs to wrestle like a carbon copy of Ric Flair, but that doesn't mean he can't take the intrinsic elements of Flair's work (storytelling, build to big spots, adding depth and meaning to sequences/sections of a match) and incorporate them into his own work. When Angle is put against an opponent who won't play by his rules and will impose their own pacing and work to exentuate Angle's strengths the results are usually excellent, see Austin v Angle Summerslam 2001, Angle v Taker Smackdown 2003 and Angle v Taker No Way Out 2006. Not that I'm implying Angle is merely along for the ride in each of those matches, more-so that there's a sense of struggle and intricate details that add to my enjoyment of the match rather than a sprint heavy match with little redeeming qualities.

As far as some of my favourite matches go:

Eddie Guerrero v Rey Mysterio Smackdown 06/23/05 and Great American Bash 2005
Stone Cold Steve Austin v Kurt Angle Summerslam 2001
Bob Backlund v Greg Valentine 1979
Sgt Slaughter v Iron Shiek Boot Camp Match
Chris Benoit v Finlay Smackdown 05/05/06, Judgement Day 2006
Chris Benoit v William Regal Brian Pillman Memorial Show 2000, Velocity 2005, No Mercy 2006
Sting v Vader Superbrawl III Strap Match
WAR GAMES 1992
Dustin Rhodes v Vader 1992 & 1994
Terry Funk v Jerry Lawler NO DQ 1981
Ted Dibiase v Jim Duggan Mid South Coal Miner's Glove on a Pole Tuxedo Steel Cage Match (no match with that name should be as good as it is)
Ric Flair v Ricky Steamboat COTC, Chi Town Rumble, Landover and Philadelphia House Shows 1989
Ric Flair v Kerry Von Erich Hawaii (1985?)
Tully Blanchard v Ron Garvin 1986
Ric Flair v Barry Windham 1987
Dick Murdoch v Barry Windham
Cicloncito Ramirez v Damiancito El Guerrero CMLL 1997 & their trios match in October 1997
El Satanico v Gran Cochisse 1984
Atlantis v Blue Panther 1991
El Dandy v Negro Casas 1992
El Dandy v Javier Llanes 1994
John Cena v CM Punk Money In The Bank 2011
Misawa/Kobashi v Kawada/Taue 1993 and 1995
Misawa v Kobashi 1/20/97
Kawada v Taue 1991 and 1993
Kawada v Hansen 1993
Hansen v Funk 1983
Funks v Hansen & Brody 1983
Funks v Abdullah and Shiek 1977 and 1979
Kobashi v Honda 2003
Kobashi v Takayama 2004
Lawler v Dundee 1983 and 1985 LLT
Lawler v Mantell 1982 series
Gilert Cestra v Billy Cantazarro 1950-1960
Marty Jones v Fit Finlay 1984 WOS
Steve Grey v Clive Myers 1977
HBK/Mankind Mind Games 1996 (ending aside)
Danielson vMcGuinness Driven, Unified, 6 Year Anniversary Show (2007, 2006, 2008)
Danielson v Strong Vendetta & Supercard of Honour
Finlay v Regal Uncensored 1996
Steamboat v Rude Iron Man Match 1992
Dustin Rhodes v Bunkhouse Buck 1994
Rock n Roll Express v Midnight Express 1990
Southern Boys v Midnight Express 1990

I could go on, I really could. But that should do for now.

That being said I don't see what providing some of my favourite matches (and I haven't even truly scratched the surface there) really indicates, that's not a conclusive set of great matches no matter how hard I recommend them.
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Old 08-11-2012, 07:49 PM   #4695 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

^^ My whole point is just to see what other wrestling fans consider to be great. That's the whole point of a FORUM is to compare opinions, etc..

I do find it interesting however that you have Cena vs Punk on your list. I thought that match, was quite sloppy, botched, although the atmosphere and storyline carried it
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Old 08-11-2012, 07:55 PM   #4696 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

And I've seen just about every match on your list except the Lawler matches and a few of the Kawada matches.

However, the same way you guys explain your opinion about other matches having flaws, I think Sting vs Vader at Superbrawl was quite weak as a match. The pacing of that match left a lot to be desired, as well as the ending(Vader winning wasn't a good idea to me)

I will agree that Austin vs Angle at Summerslam 2001 is an amazing match. I just hated the concept of Angle being this unbeatable babyface, but Austin being such a vicious, almost unbeatable heel. It was meant to get Angle over, but the crowd themselves started chanting for Austin at a few times
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Old 08-11-2012, 07:58 PM   #4697 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

At the end of the day you're fighting a losing battle in trying to comprehend why people find flaws in matches, I understand you're trying to better understand my opinion but realistically you need to spend more time arguing in favour of the match and certain aspects me and Cal have critiqued, rather than trying to question what people look for in a match (not trying to be condescending here btw, just clarifying we're not going to move further along until we start debating key aspects of both matches and give opposing viewpoints as to what was good/bad in both).


The match may have been occasionally sloppy (though I think people exaggerate just how sloppy it actually was) but exection is far less important than storytelling, emotion, pacing, build and character work in a match. You can have a match with flawless execution but if there's nothing to admire outside of that then the match just isn't going to peak beyond a certain level. Punk/Cena had an extraordinary Cena performance as the default heel, and the progression from Cena trying to outwrestle Punk, to Punk trying to wrestle the match of his career to Cena using his experience to control the middle portion of the match and then Punk having to build his comeback and work from the bottom, complete with some terrific near falls and selling from Cena in particular. The moment he questions the referee's call was just pitch perfect storytelling and character progression from him, the frustration and atmosphere was clearly affecting him and he sold that frustration by exhibiting some un-Cena like behaviour, which just added some meaning to what had already been a damn good match.

The atmosphere really helped them in laying out a more old school match which focused on the character dynamic and building the match around certain sequences, but what they delivered was just incredible wrestling by taking the essence of a great match and just adding so many unique and character touches to complete the match. People often like to call Cena a bad seller, but when you consider selling goes beyond limbwork and extends into drawing a crowd into a match and selling a match through your facial expressions and mannerisms, there are few better than Cena in a main event match at doing this. Cena perfectly illustrated when he was out-matched, confident, desperate and even frustrated, and the finish with him ultimately living by the John Cena code after acting contrary to it at key moments in the match just capped off the match.
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Old 08-11-2012, 08:25 PM   #4698 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Segunda Caida View Post
At the end of the day you're fighting a losing battle in trying to comprehend why people find flaws in matches, I understand you're trying to better understand my opinion but realistically you need to spend more time arguing in favour of the match and certain aspects me and Cal have critiqued, rather than trying to question what people look for in a match (not trying to be condescending here btw, just clarifying we're not going to move further along until we start debating key aspects of both matches and give opposing viewpoints as to what was good/bad in both).


The match may have been occasionally sloppy (though I think people exaggerate just how sloppy it actually was) but exection is far less important than storytelling, emotion, pacing, build and character work in a match. You can have a match with flawless execution but if there's nothing to admire outside of that then the match just isn't going to peak beyond a certain level. Punk/Cena had an extraordinary Cena performance as the default heel, and the progression from Cena trying to outwrestle Punk, to Punk trying to wrestle the match of his career to Cena using his experience to control the middle portion of the match and then Punk having to build his comeback and work from the bottom, complete with some terrific near falls and selling from Cena in particular. The moment he questions the referee's call was just pitch perfect storytelling and character progression from him, the frustration and atmosphere was clearly affecting him and he sold that frustration by exhibiting some un-Cena like behaviour, which just added some meaning to what had already been a damn good match.

The atmosphere really helped them in laying out a more old school match which focused on the character dynamic and building the match around certain sequences, but what they delivered was just incredible wrestling by taking the essence of a great match and just adding so many unique and character touches to complete the match. People often like to call Cena a bad seller, but when you consider selling goes beyond limbwork and extends into drawing a crowd into a match and selling a match through your facial expressions and mannerisms, there are few better than Cena in a main event match at doing this. Cena perfectly illustrated when he was out-matched, confident, desperate and even frustrated, and the finish with him ultimately living by the John Cena code after acting contrary to it at key moments in the match just capped off the match.
The bolded is where you lost me. As a wrestling fan, I actually like to debate, discuss, and engage in conversation with other wrestling fan in regards to matches. As a lifelong fan, it makes me want to go back, watch matches, maybe look for things I may not have noticed before and try to make other fans do the same as well. It's part of the fun. I've given my viewpoints on matches. Every post I've had about a match has my viewpoint. I'm here to compare, discuss, etc, which is what we're doing.

I couldn't understand for one, how your view of Cena/Punk is what you just posted, but you've seen a load of flaws in a match like HHH/HBK, which had more story behind it, more emotion, wasn't sloppy, or botched, and also was built in the vein of a match with superb pacing and etc....

However, I cannot see the hype for Cena's role in this match. The sloppiness took a little bit away from it and while some people say it was an old school match, I disagree. It's a good match, sure, but the crowd, the atmosphere, and the finishers being overused carried the match. The actual match itself did very little in terms of character work, performance(botches and sloppiness do not equal good performance), etc... Of course, this is all relative, but as a wrestling fan, comparing and debating is key.
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Old 08-11-2012, 08:46 PM   #4699 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Debating is fine, but instead of trying to work out whether people think too much about wrestling when watching it (despite me understanding your viewpoint), I'm more used to people just taking everything I've said about the match and then putting their own opinion to counter mine and bring about a discussion. Like I said I can see what you were trying to do, I'm just not used to people taking a 'do people really think this way' approach rather than 'I disagree with *insert critique of match here*'.

Honestly can't fathom how HBK/HHH had more of a story or emotion in the match. Emotion I can see more of an argument for, though again HBK alternating from sympathetic victim to deranged lunatic kind of took away whatever emotion I was meant to be feeling instead of him playing one character. Was I supposed to be looking away in horror, cheering him on valiantly or encouraging him to kill HHH some more?

Story wise HHH/HBK is a jumbled mess, somewhere in the match they abandon the story that HBK is weak and past it and turn it into an attempted Memphis bloodbath with ladders, chairs, trashcans and tables. I appreciate the HHH attack on Raw meant HBK was going to be naturally pissed, but again why focus so much on HBK being outmatched and helpless whilst also trying to work some blood feud angle with them wanting to kill each other. Seems more beneficial to run the whole 'HBK is past it and I'll prove I was never in his shadow' story and then use the post match attack to set up the blood feud element and progression of the feud. Cena/Punk was a clear story of Punk's desire to win the biggest match of his career and cement himself as someone the WWE should have recognised as the best in the business, and in trying to stop this Cena was pushed to breaking point in terms of growing frustrated and putting in the performance necessary to stop Punk. The entire match played off of both characters and centred on Punk's pride and belief in his own ability, against Cena's moral code and his inability to do what was right for business, but what would go against his own morality. Cena dieing by his own sword perfectly closed off this story which dominated numerous sequences and which escalated as the match and tension progressed.
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Old 08-11-2012, 08:58 PM   #4700 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Just a week before SummerSlam 2012, I finished watching SummerSlam 2003.

La Resistance/Dudley Boyz - **1/2
Just your typical tag team match with a clever ending where that third man from La Resistance poses as a camera man and hits D-Von with the camera when the ref turns his back.

Undertaker vs A-Train - **1/4
Average at best with a little drama towards the end but it was all pointless in the end. The rematch between Cena and Taker done at the 14th August episode of Smackdown should have been saved for this PPV. It would have given Cena an early boost with the unclean victory where A-Train interfered and then Taker could overcome the train on a random episode of Smackdown for such an underwhelming match. Once again, Cena was left off the card of one of the big four PPVs, much like Wrestlemania 19.

Shane McMahon vs Eric Bischoff - ***
Kind of disappointing for a Shane match where I come in expecting a bunch of memorable spots. Here, Coachman for some reason interferes but then Stone Cold evens it out and they open a can of whoop ass with Shane beating Bischoff after an awesome elbow drop on the table.

Eddie Guerrero vs Chris Benoit vs Tajiri vs Rhyno - ***1/2
Another awesome match between the Smackdown midcarders. They have split their jobs pretty well with Benoit doing the technical stuff, Tajiri being the agile cruiserweight, Eddie doing the cheap heelish stuff and some lucha style moves and Rhyno being the powerhouse. Lots of back-and-forth with many pinfalls that are broken by other participants. Very fast paced and everyone gets to show off their skills while Eddie comes out of this with the title still around his waist.

Kurt Angle vs Brock Lesnar - ***3/4
Not quite as good as their WM match but another great match nonetheless. It starts off slow but despite the mostly dead crowds, manages to keep the viewer's interest with Brock doing a good job performing as the heel and Angle overcoming the odds and making Lesnar tap to the Ankle Lock.

Kane vs Rob Van Dam - ***1/2
Decent match with both getting in a fair amount of offense to make it even. That said, however, this match misses the intensity Kane has had in his monster run where he has destroying everything in his path since the unmasking. That missed Coast-to-Coast by RVD was also awesome and only could have been that much more brutal had he connected.

Elimination Chamber - ***
Very underwhelming. Ends way too soon for a chamber match and the ending itself is awful. Goldberg is on an awesome run, eliminated everybody, then HHH gets a sledgehammer and with one shot, he eliminates Goldberg just like that. Given a bit more time, this could have been a lot better. But I guess they were saving the HHH/Goldberg fighting for Unforgiven.

Overall: ***1/4 out of ***** (It's kind of mixed stuff with some good matches, mostly from Smackdown, and some disappointing stuff, mainly the chamber match. Still a good SummerSlam but the chamber makes the end result feel a bit more underwhelming.)
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