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Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

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#1 ·
#7,463 ·
As individual matches in themselves, the HHH-Orton series isn't bad at all, it's just when put in context they're absolutely terrible. Let me try and explain what I mean by that : if two random wrestlers went out in the middle of a PPV and wrestled a ** 1/2 - ** 3/4 match, I'd be like "yeah, that match was decent" , or if they went head to head on TV and put out those matches, it would be okay. However, these two are put in consistent MAIN EVENT matches where I believe a higher standard than *** should be expected. In order for a main event match to be satisfying for me, it has to be atleast *** 1/4 or even *** depending on what happens before and after the match. Now, take a *** 1/4 match and put it in the middle of the card... It goes up ALOT more in value in context to an entire show, which is where HHH-Orton fails for me. Consistently MEH matches in the main event = consistently sub par work for the most part. Does anybody here actually get what I'm saying or am I going completely insane ?
 
#7,464 ·
I find all their other singles matches to be dull as fuck. Especially that cage lol.
I enjoyed that cage match, don't know why nobody else likes it 'cept me. I also don't think their WM25 match is as bad as most make it out to be. Is it subpar? You're damn right! But it's not "worst main event ever!!!" caliber as many have made it out to be. What kills it specially is the dead crowd. They were not that dead for the triple threat that took place after HBK/Taker so I don't know what killed them.

As individual matches in themselves, the HHH-Orton series isn't bad at all, it's just when put in context they're absolutely terrible. Let me try and explain what I mean by that : if two random wrestlers went out in the middle of a PPV and wrestled a ** 1/2 - ** 3/4 match, I'd be like "yeah, that match was decent" , or if they went head to head on TV and put out those matches, it would be okay. However, these two are put in consistent MAIN EVENT matches where I believe a higher standard than *** should be expected. In order for a main event match to be satisfying for me, it has to be atleast *** 1/4 or even *** depending on what happens before and after the match. Now, take a *** 1/4 match and put it in the middle of the card... It goes up ALOT more in value in context to an entire show, which is where HHH-Orton fails for me. Consistently MEH matches in the main event = consistently sub par work for the most part. Does anybody here actually get what I'm saying or am I going completely insane ?
I totally understand what you mean. If it was anybody else, the standards would have been low meaning the matches would have been acceptable but when you have HHH and Orton, two of the best main event workers in the past decade, it'll feel underwhelming.
 
#7,465 ·
I was having a discussion with a friend of mine who only started watching wrestling in 2011 after we all went to Wrestlemania 27 and he mentioned something I found very interesting. Not only have their been some excellent matches over the past year and a half, but he had said that his absolute favorite match was CM Punk vs. John Cena at Money in the Bank ’11. I tried to counter and say how it was a great match with probably the best build in a long time, but he tried to coax me into watching it one more time. So after the NY/SF football game on Sunday, we popped in the DVD and watched Punk-Cena again. And you know what? I’ll have to agree with the match’s greatness, ranking it in my top 5. While other matches may have been better from a technical standpoint, very few matches were as highly anticipated or unpredictable as that match was. Even listening to Daniel Bryan on the BITW documentary, it was so refreshing to have a match where it could’ve very easily gone one way or the other. The big match feel that this match had and I’m talking about the pre-match promos that were the strongest in either man’s career, the uncertainty regarding Punk’s real-life contract, the segments all throughout the night of Money in the Bank where they were building the match, it was just excellent. The hometown crowd of CM Punk, reacting to every single move he did and just setting up the absolute perfect atmosphere. Cena and Punk putting on a 30 minute clinic with a very clear and concise beginning-middle-ending sequence of events the entire way through. The little meticulous details about the match that can give it even more credibility, whether it is the submission reversals or near falls. The brilliant ending that tied in every single rumored ending, whether it was a ‘Chicago Screwjob’ or Del Rio cashing in his briefcase. The commentary was superb all match, not at any point being annoying and although fans usually wish JR was on commentary for every big match, Cole really sold the importance throughout the entire match of the WWE title staying in the WWE and not leaving the company with CM Punk. Everything about this match was perfect, from the storyline to the build up to the match. Anybody agree that this is one of the top 5-10 WWE matches of all-time?
 
#7,466 ·
I didn't think Cena/Punk is a top 10 WWE match ever, but it's not a terribly unpopular opinion.

Watched some 2000s Michaels recently, including the LMS with HHH that was brought up yesterday. Yeah.....it wasn't good. Then I watched the HIAC.........

......

.

THEN I watched the match at Taboo Tuesday, and that one was actually pretty good. Definitely the best match they had post-2003. I don't remember what people think of this - like it? Hate it? Haven't seen it? Sexyness?
 
#7,467 ·
THEN I watched the match at Taboo Tuesday, and that one was actually pretty good. Definitely the best match they had post-2003. I don't remember what people think of this - like it? Hate it? Haven't seen it? Sexyness?
I am about to reach Taboo Tuesday very soon, so I haven't seen it yet but will give my opinion soon.

The HIAC match, though, is fucking terrible. If there's one match that personifies boring, this must be it. Which says a lot when Big Show/Alberto del Rio happened last year around this time and it was more entertaining reading the Raw thread with people saying "FUCK this match is so boring!" than watching the match itself.
 
#7,470 ·
Taboo Tuesday match is their second best imo after the December Raw 03 match. Said it not too long ago when HHH/HBK talk surfaced, but its no coincidence their two best matches are the matches on a smaller setting with no gimmick attached and them just wrestling a simple match without trying to make the feud grander and on some other level.
Watched the 12/03 recently too, and it doesn't hold up as great, but it's good. Their 1996 match is a normal match and is pretty awesome. I've always liked SummerSlam 02 as well.
 
#7,471 ·
May have to watch the 1996 match again then.

Ah Summerslam, there are good elements to it but I just don't like how the match seems to be broken into two halves, think my long affiliated stance is the 1st half seems like the first match in a long feud (setting the initial story about HBK having to prove himself) but then the 2nd half of the match feels like a dramatic feud ender. I don't even actually mind the HBK nip up since I think it adds to the story of him being broken down and having to prove he can overcome the ring rust and be 'the man' again, but I don't like how he goes from looking vulnerable and sympathetic to some deranged lunatic in the space of 10 minutes.

Its still their 3rd best match to me, since the 3 Stages of Hell (boy that name gets more appropriate the more I think about it) is utter dogshit, the Rumble LMS match isn't very good and the HIAC is probably the definition of them trying too hard to make the match 'Epic' rather than letting it develop naturally.
 
#7,472 ·
May have to watch the 1996 match again then.

Ah Summerslam, there are good elements to it but I just don't like how the match seems to be broken into two halves, think my long affiliated stance is the 1st half seems like the first match in a long feud (setting the initial story about HBK having to prove himself) but then the 2nd half of the match feels like a dramatic feud ender. I don't even actually mind the HBK nip up since I think it adds to the story of him being broken down and having to prove he can overcome the ring rust and be 'the man' again, but I don't like how he goes from looking vulnerable and sympathetic to some deranged lunatic in the space of 10 minutes.
This is actually most likely what they were going for since Shawn was only supposed to come back to have that one match. Nobody thought he would come back and stay for as long as he did. It was supposed to be that one match and that was it so when you think of it that way, your analysis/interpretation of the match makes a lot of sense lol.
 
#7,474 ·
Yeah. I think both of them have said it themselves in interviews over the years. I love the match personally. Big HHH mark, big HBK mark, what's not to like lol? Their best match together though is obviously their epic clash over the European Title. ********** all the way.
 
#7,476 ·
As individual matches in themselves, the HHH-Orton series isn't bad at all, it's just when put in context they're absolutely terrible. Let me try and explain what I mean by that : if two random wrestlers went out in the middle of a PPV and wrestled a ** 1/2 - ** 3/4 match, I'd be like "yeah, that match was decent" , or if they went head to head on TV and put out those matches, it would be okay. However, these two are put in consistent MAIN EVENT matches where I believe a higher standard than *** should be expected. In order for a main event match to be satisfying for me, it has to be atleast *** 1/4 or even *** depending on what happens before and after the match. Now, take a *** 1/4 match and put it in the middle of the card... It goes up ALOT more in value in context to an entire show, which is where HHH-Orton fails for me. Consistently MEH matches in the main event = consistently sub par work for the most part. Does anybody here actually get what I'm saying or am I going completely insane ?
I can agree with this. Placement on the card determines expectations to some degree. Of course if you put Bryan and Ziggler against each other in the middle of a PPV and they only delivered **1/2, that would be considered terrible, so it also comes down to the performers. But generally you'd expect a main event match to be a great match, where a match in the middle of the card with no story and randomly put together, you'd be okay with them not being anything spectacular and are just hoping the match isn't shit.

In any event, Orton/HHH is probably the worst series of matches for two main eventers ever. Here's how I rate them:

UNF 04 : **1/4
Raw 1/3/05: **1/4
RR 05 : **3/4
NM 07 : **
NM 07 (LMS): ****
JD 08 (Cage): **1/2
ONS 08(LMS): **1/4
WM25: **1/2
The Bash: *1/2
Raw LMS 2009 (?): ***

Just out of their singles matches, and only two are *** and more. Just severely disappointing. For some reason Orton and HHH just could never really click besides in LMS matches. The ONS one probably would've been higher if it wasn't ended so prematurely. But in singles matches they were brutal with what you'd expect, going back to what K1ngofK1ngs said.
 
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