Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread - Page 202 - Wrestling Forum : WWE, TNA, Debate League, Wrestling Videos, Women of Wrestling Forums
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Old 05-04-2012, 12:54 PM   #2011 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

^^^^ Half those matches aren't classic matches lol. I know it all depends on how you define classic but if you're going to label the likes of Taker/Orton, Taker/Edge and Taker/Batista (bar the 23 match which has a legitimate claim) and Taker/Big Show (lol) as classic matches then you're going to have to add to HHH's list as well and include his incredible-but-not-quite-classic matches too. The fact that you have Taker/Show on there and neither Taker/HHH match speaks volumes lol. Obis, Y U NO LIKE HHH?
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Old 05-04-2012, 01:10 PM   #2012 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Kurt Angle 4.5+ stars 2000 - 2009

2001
Benoit Backlash - **** 1/2
Shane McMahon KOTR - **** 1/2
Benoit Raw - **** 1/2
Austin SummerSlam - **** 3/4

2002
Triple Threat Vengeance - **** 1/2
Benoit Unforgiven - **** 1/2+
Angle/Benoit vs. Edge/Mysterio No Mercy - *****
Angle/Benoit vs. Edge/Mysterio Smackdown - **** 1/2

2003
Benoit Rumble - *****
Lesnar SummerSlam - **** 1/2
Undertaker Smackdown - **** 1/2
Lesnar Smackdown - **** 1/2

2005
HBK WM21 - **** 3/4

2006
Undertaker NWO - **** 3/4

2008
Joe Lockdown - **** 1/2
Styles Hard Justice - **** 1/2

And a bunch of 4+ star matches with Rock, Austin, HBK, Benoit, Christian, Joe, Jarrett, Abyss, Edge, Mysterio, Taker, Lesnar, Eddie, and Cena.
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Old 05-04-2012, 02:02 PM   #2013 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starbuck View Post
^^^^ Half those matches aren't classic matches lol. I know it all depends on how you define classic but if you're going to label the likes of Taker/Orton, Taker/Edge and Taker/Batista (bar the 23 match which has a legitimate claim) and Taker/Big Show (lol) as classic matches then you're going to have to add to HHH's list as well and include his incredible-but-not-quite-classic matches too. The fact that you have Taker/Show on there and neither Taker/HHH match speaks volumes lol. Obis, Y U NO LIKE HHH?
The thing is, if you like somebody--the enjoyment automatically increases and that would result in 1/2* - * being added normally. When you're watching somebody you think "so-so," of, your rating goes down 1/2* - *. So yeah, that's why we end up having these arguments.

The whole thing should be, "I like so and so; hence, I'd be inclined to rate his matches higher because I enjoy so and so more." Like if somebody rates Orton/Undertaker at 5-stars and Hunter/Undertaker at 3-stars, it doesn't show anything else; it just shows that you enjoyed Orton/Undertaker more than Hunter/Undertaker.

Science of Match Enjoyment :Cornette

I don't know why I wrote that, but yeah--the whole Undertaker vs. Hunter was pointless anyway, so maybe...
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Old 05-04-2012, 02:30 PM   #2014 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Surprised no one has done an Austin list yet.

*waits patiently for an Austin list*
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Old 05-04-2012, 02:48 PM   #2015 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starbuck View Post
^^^^ Half those matches aren't classic matches lol. I know it all depends on how you define classic but if you're going to label the likes of Taker/Orton, Taker/Edge and Taker/Batista (bar the 23 match which has a legitimate claim) and Taker/Big Show (lol) as classic matches then you're going to have to add to HHH's list as well and include his incredible-but-not-quite-classic matches too. The fact that you have Taker/Show on there and neither Taker/HHH match speaks volumes lol. Obis, Y U NO LIKE HHH?
Read Razor King's post.

Ill admit, perhaps I am overrating Taker/Show a bit, but that match was just a thrill to watch on last viewing. I don't get that from either of the Taker/HHH matches, which are matches I do believe get overrated a bit much.

The Taker/Orton and Taker/Edge matches that I mentioned are indeed classics in some regard, especially the Taker/Edge cell match.

As far as HHH's "incredible but not quite classic bouts", I'd do that, but then Taker's list would get the same treatment and who knows, Taker may even get a bigger lead on my list.

Also, even if I did consider Taker/HHH's matches classics, I wouldn't include them on the lists anyway since we're comparing the two directly.
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Old 05-04-2012, 03:22 PM   #2016 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by BUBZ View Post
Surprised no one has done an Austin list yet.

*waits patiently for an Austin list*
vs. Bret SS 96 - *****
vs. Bret WM 13 - ****3/4
vs. Trips NWO 01 - ****3/4
vs. Benoit SD! - ****3/4
& Trips vs. Jericho & Benoit - ****1/2
& HBK vs. Owen Hart & British Bulldog RAW - ****1/2
vs. Bret vs. Vader vs. Taker Final Four? - ****1/2
Canadian Stampede Match - ****1/2
vs. Rock WM X7 - ****1/2
vs. Angle SS 2002 - ****1/2
Team WWE vs. Team Alliance - ****1/2
6 Man HIAC - ****1/4
vs. Dude Love OTE 98 - ****1/4 (the better of the two, cant remember which event)
vs. Rock BL 99 - ****1/4
vs. Rock WM 19 - ****1/4
vs. Michaels KOTR 97 - ****
vs. Trips NM 99 - ****
vs. Savio Vega ?? - ****

That's a pretty decent list I think. The ratings that are the same can be mixed around, ain't bothered about order, just appreciate Austin, he was the man.
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Old 05-04-2012, 03:51 PM   #2017 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Guess I'll post some top 5's:

Brock Lesnar's Top 5:

1) vs. Taker NM02- ****3/4
2) vs. Angle Ironman SD03 Ironman- ****1/2
3) vs. Angle Summerslam 03- ****1/4
4) vs. Eddie Guerrero NWO04- ****1/4
5) vs. Angle WM19- ****1/4

Kurt Angle's Top 5 (WWE Only)

1) vs. Benoit RR03- *****
2) vs. Undertaker NWO06- ****3/4
3) vs. Austin Summerslam 01- ****3/4
4) vs. Undertaker SD03- ****3/4
5) vs. Lesnar SD03 Ironman- ****1/2

Undertaker's Top 5:

1) vs. HBK BB97- *****
2) vs. HBK WM25- *****
3) vs. Lesnar NM02- ****3/4
4) vs. Angle NWO06- ****3/4
5) vs. Angle SD03- ****3/4

HHH's Top 5:

1) vs. Cactus Jack RR00- ****3/4
2) vs. Rock JD00- ****1/2
3) vs. Batista Vengeance 05- ****1/2
4) vs. Jericho FL00- ****1/2
5) vs. HBK SS02- ****1/2

HBK's Top 5:

1) vs. Taker BB97- *****
2) vs. Taker WM25- *****
3) vs. Razor Ramon WM10- ****3/4
4) vs. Jericho WM19- ****3/4
5) vs. Jericho NM08- ****1/2 (There's a sea of matches at this rating for HBK... had trouble choosing just one )

Jericho's Top 5:

1) vs. HBK WM19- ****3/4
2) vs. Benoit RR01- ****3/4
3) vs. HBK NM08- ****3/4
4) vs. Rock NM01- ****1/2
5) vs. HHH FL00- ****1/2

Austin's Top 5:

1) vs. Bret Hart WM13- *****
2) vs. Bret Hart SS96- *****
3) vs. Rock WM17- *****
4) vs. Angle SS01- ****3/4
5) vs. Rock WM19- ****1/2
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Old 05-04-2012, 03:57 PM   #2018 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Razor King View Post
The thing is, if you like somebody--the enjoyment automatically increases and that would result in 1/2* - * being added normally. When you're watching somebody you think "so-so," of, your rating goes down 1/2* - *. So yeah, that's why we end up having these arguments.

The whole thing should be, "I like so and so; hence, I'd be inclined to rate his matches higher because I enjoy so and so more." Like if somebody rates Orton/Undertaker at 5-stars and Hunter/Undertaker at 3-stars, it doesn't show anything else; it just shows that you enjoyed Orton/Undertaker more than Hunter/Undertaker.

Science of Match Enjoyment :Cornette

I don't know why I wrote that, but yeah--the whole Undertaker vs. Hunter was pointless anyway, so maybe...
Of course. That's only natural when giving subjective opinions but that doesn't mean some measure of objectivity can't come into play too. It does for me anyways and seems to for most others here as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obis View Post
Read Razor King's post.

Ill admit, perhaps I am overrating Taker/Show a bit, but that match was just a thrill to watch on last viewing. I don't get that from either of the Taker/HHH matches, which are matches I do believe get overrated a bit much.

The Taker/Orton and Taker/Edge matches that I mentioned are indeed classics in some regard, especially the Taker/Edge cell match.

As far as HHH's "incredible but not quite classic bouts", I'd do that, but then Taker's list would get the same treatment and who knows, Taker may even get a bigger lead on my list.

Also, even if I did consider Taker/HHH's matches classics, I wouldn't include them on the lists anyway since we're comparing the two directly.
Same as above. You admit that you're ovarrating Taker/Show right? How can it be considered a classic match then? Classic match to you, yes, but we aren't talking about your favorite matches or even Taker's greatest matches. We're talking classic matches, the cream of the crop, the best of the best, classics. There has to be some measure of objectivity in this discussion otherwise it turns into your favorite matches list. Many people loved the Punk/Henry match on Raw a few weeks back and rate it as one of the best MOTY. Does that make it a classic? I don't think so. It makes it a favorite match of that person, a highly rated match to that person and alright then, lets stretch it to a classic to that person. I'm still of the belief that you have to be somewhat objective when listing truly classic matches though. I love Cena/HHH from Mania 22, think it's an awesome match and a kickass Mania main event but I wouldn't call it a classic match. I feel that's what you're doing with half the matches on this list. I also love both Taker/Orton matches but I wouldn't call them classics either, just really really good, amazing even, matches. That's the difference.
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Old 05-04-2012, 04:19 PM   #2019 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Starbuck View Post
Of course. That's only natural when giving subjective opinions but that doesn't mean some measure of objectivity can't come into play too. It does for me anyways and seems to for most others here as well.



Same as above. You admit that you're ovarrating Taker/Show right? How can it be considered a classic match then? Classic match to you, yes, but we aren't talking about your favorite matches or even Taker's greatest matches. We're talking classic matches, the cream of the crop, the best of the best, classics. There has to be some measure of objectivity in this discussion otherwise it turns into your favorite matches list. Many people loved the Punk/Henry match on Raw a few weeks back and rate it as one of the best MOTY. Does that make it a classic? I don't think so. It makes it a favorite match of that person, a highly rated match to that person and alright then, lets stretch it to a classic to that person. I'm still of the belief that you have to be somewhat objective when listing truly classic matches though. I love Cena/HHH from Mania 22, think it's an awesome match and a kickass Mania main event but I wouldn't call it a classic match. I feel that's what you're doing with half the matches on this list. I also love both Taker/Orton matches but I wouldn't call them classics either, just really really good, amazing even, matches. That's the difference.
Yes, I am admitting Taker/Show isn't a classic and I wouldn't really call that a classic looking at it objectively.

Still, if I was being entirely subjective, let me tell you which matches would be considered classics in my eyes, just to give you the level of difference:


1997:
vs. Bret Hart Summerslam- ****1/2 (Old old rating, need to re-watch it, and haven't seen their ONO or have no recollection of it)
vs. HBK BB97- *****

1998:
vs. Kane WM14- ****
vs. Austin Summerslam 98- ***3/4(this would be there just due to how big the match was in my childhood and looking back completely subjective, it's one of my favorite matches of all time)
vs. Mankind (****... this is a classic for obvious reasons. Definitely not it's technicality, and HHH/Foley's was better in that department, but just how epic and remembered the match is, plus the fact it wasn't terrible by any means makes it a classic)

1999:
vs. Austin FL99- ****

2001:
vs. HHH WM17 (best of their matches imho)- ****
vs. Austin JD01

2002:
vs. Jeff Hardy Raw Ladder Match- ***3/4
vs. Flair WM18- ***3/4
vs. Lesnar Unforgiven 2000- ****
vs. Angle SD 02- ****1/4 (need to re-watch)
vs. Lesnar NM03- ****3/4

2003:
vs. Cena Vengeance 03- ****
vs. Angle SD for WWE Title- ****3/4

2005:
vs. Orton WM21- ****1/4
vs. Orton Summerslam- ****
vs. Orton SD- ***3/4
vs. Ortons Casket Match- ***3/4
vs. Orton HIAC- ****1/4

2006:
vs. Angle NWO06- ****3/4
vs. Angle SD after NWO- ****1/4

2007:
vs. Batista WM23- ****1/2
vs. Batista Backlash LMS- ****
vs. Batista Cage SD- ***3/4
vs. Batista Cyber Sunday- ****1/4
vs. Batista HIAC- ****1/4

2008:
vs. Edge WM24- ****1/4
vs. Edge Backlash- ****
vs. Edge SS08- ****3/4
vs. Big Show NM- ***3/4
vs. Big Show CS- ****1/4 (Let's swap this to the subjective side)

2009:
vs. HBK WM25- *****

2010:
vs. HBK WM26- ****1/2

And that's pretty much my completely subjective list. This isn't even all my favorite Taker matches, but if I were to just take my personal enjoyment into account, these are classics in my mind. If I actually watch the matches and think about things, what went wrong, what looked odd, etc. etc., well... it lowers me down to the matches I have. Even just ignoring the star ratings and looking at the list of matches, I'd say all the ones I put in my first list are fair to call classics in some regard (even Taker/Show as a clash of goliaths).

But yeah, I was being as objective as possible with that first list, but as Razor pretty much pointed out, there's always going to be some level of subjectivity. That subjectivity that will make you have more HHH matches on the list than me and less Taker matches. I don't honestly think it's possible to be primarily objective, even when you try to be when it comes to something you've invested a lot of time into. I think the best objective list would be to have someone who has never watched or heard of wrestling or any of it's stars, watch each of the best matches of these guys and put a list of their own, with no prior knowledge or even a small bias of someone else being put in their head.
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Old 05-04-2012, 04:29 PM   #2020 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

The Rock's great matches? Lists - Ratings.
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