Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread - Page 1826 - Wrestling Forum : WWE, TNA, Debate League, Wrestling Videos, Women of Wrestling Forums
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Old 02-16-2013, 06:44 PM   #18251 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeah1993 View Post
Career v career Rey smokes everyone on the roster right now. Like, absolutely mutilates them. He'd probably be in my top ten all time, and other than Danielson IDK if I'd put anyone else on the roster in the top 100. Maybe I'm forgetting some guys who are still going.

EDIT - Eddie has heel over Rey, which I think is a plausible factor if you want to say he's better. Rey just has the most consistent (and best) run of anyone in WWE history, though. It's fucking insane how good his matches are how often. It's like 2009 Christian, but with multiple more legit great matches that stretch across an entire decade.
Yeah its just one of those where they both bring different dynamics and wonderful qualities to their work that its impossible to decide between them. Rey is obviously amazingly consistent and has such a volume of work spanning the undercard, midcard and main event, working guys of all styles and sizes and crafting great matches in clean title matches, blood feuds and general babyface vs heel feuds. He's the best babyface WWE has had on their books, has given numerous guys the best match of their career and just reinvented himself as his body broke down and essentially mastered and crafted the ideal TV formula.

Eddie is obviously far less consistent and for numerous reasons wasn't afforded the same opportunities to showcase his true talent. I think I'm just in a phase where guys like Arn & Eddie are impossible for me to not want to stress as being awesome. Things like Eddie in the Fall Brawl match vs Jericho and how he builds the beginning around him feigning a hair pull to distract the referee so he can pull Jericho's hair to counter a hold. Simple and basic character work but the sort of theatrics and the true essence of a performer that I'm digging so much at present. Give it a few months and I'll be on a babyface kick and the likes of Morton, Duggan, Steamboat, Rhodes and especially Mysterio will become my treasures again when I revisit their best babyface performances over the course of their careers.

Agreed on Rey smoking everyone currently working when it comes to career vs career. Dude is a true phenom (apologies Undertaker fans).
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Old 02-16-2013, 06:46 PM   #18252 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

I'd certainly have Eddie/Rey/Benoit all in the same tier when it comes to a pure WORK standpoint. Watched the original MITB ladder match the other day and it's so crazy to compare it to other multi man ladder matches due to Benoit's effort in putting a story inside of a match type that has been known for BIG SPOT after BIG SPOT. People say Shelton was the MVP of that match but they would be wrong ; Shelton was just the spot monkey. MITB ONE was Benoit's match.

Best REY performance ? As far as I'm concerned the 05 SD, JD, and GAB matches were EDDIE'S matches.
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Old 02-16-2013, 06:50 PM   #18253 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Shelton fucking ruled MITB I dude. If you're not there to make memorable moments, then what would be the point? (he wasn't winning. why not steal the show. And it's pretty obvious what he "psychology" of a 6 man ladder match would be.)
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Old 02-16-2013, 06:54 PM   #18254 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

You want psychology in a 6 man ladder match? Then looking no further that SD MITB 2010. Best damn MITB match of all time imo.
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Old 02-16-2013, 06:54 PM   #18255 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Best Rey performance is rather hard to quantify. Dude built his repotoire and legacy out of delivering week to week a tremendous volume of matches against a variety of styles. Its hard to compare his work in the Finlay series from '06-07, to his work against Tajiri from late '03-04, to the Lesnar & Henry matches he's had compared to working against JBL, Cena, Morrison, Mcintyre, Benoit, Chavo & Eddie.

I wouldn't label the '05 series as an Eddie series, moreso a case of two really gifted performers mixing so well. Eddie obviously brings a sense of pyschology and character work and genuine emotion in the series that is hard to rival, but at the same time its Rey's magnetism and ability to progress from the man who doesn't want to fight his best friend to wrestling like a man possessed that also adds to the series. Its two guys playing off of each other in such mesmerising fashion. A truly all time great babyface up against a truly elite heel worker entering arguably his peak in terms of structure, selling, emotion and character work.

If I had to pick one Rey performance which stands out from the rest...I might pick vs Chavo from Great American Bash '04. Just the way he sold throughout and timed all his comebacks and offence felt like maybe a peak performance from him and whilst Chavo brings a lot to that match I think it might be the best documentation of Rey giving someone as good a match as it turned out. Its not a carryjob in the true sense of the word, but I can't imagine Chavo ever having anything close to that match again from anyone he could have worked with at that time and for me that separates Rey's performance from that of a performance vs Mcintyre, Finlay, Morrison, Cena, Henry, Show, Lesnar, Tajiri etc which are all excellent but could be interchangeable in terms of which rank amongst his finest.
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Old 02-16-2013, 06:59 PM   #18256 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Did Benoit and Rey ever got to work together properly in a singles match environment? I think they have a short TV match in 2002 but nothing else other than tag team/multi-men matches.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfKings View Post
I'd certainly have Eddie/Rey/Benoit all in the same tier when it comes to a pure WORK standpoint. Watched the original MITB ladder match the other day and it's so crazy to compare it to other multi man ladder matches due to Benoit's effort in putting a story inside of a match type that has been known for BIG SPOT after BIG SPOT. People say Shelton was the MVP of that match but they would be wrong ; Shelton was just the spot monkey. MITB ONE was Benoit's match.
I give credit to both. Spots are as important as telling a story for the MITB match and in that role, Shelton is simply unstoppable. I do agree that BENOIT is the MVP for that match. Have to laugh at WWE searching for all of 2 minutes they've found in the match where Benoit is absent on the outside to post it on WWE.com, though.

Even though I acknowledge Eddie as one of the all time greats, I feel that I'm not quite as familiar with him as I should be, specially compared to the rest of this thread. Definitely gonna seek out his pre-WWE work. He was simply amazing at everything and like said, very versatile. Let's compare his match at Judgment Day 2004 then his match from the same PPV a year later. He's playing two COMPLETELY different roles but is equally excellent at both.

On a different note, I finally got around to rewatch this match below.

Kurt Angle vs Brock Lesnar - SummerSlam 2003
- I was going to watch this a while ago but didn't get around to it until now. And I have to say this is another match that has improved in my eyes on second watch. Brock plays the monster heel perfectly and his control segments are excellent. Kurt Angle's comeback is equally good as he has the crowd eating out the palm of his hands with every move. I really loved that move he did right before the Ankle Lock when the referee was down. Kind of like a inverted Sleeper with the legs wrapped around the throat. Vince's interference was not necessary but it played up to the crowd getting behind Angle even more as Lesnar desperately tried to reach the ropes in the Ankle Lock but had no choice but to submit in the end. The Angle Slam post-match on Vince to the chair was pretty sweet as well. This one gets bumped by a quarter. ★★★★½
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Old 02-16-2013, 07:06 PM   #18257 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Oh and on the whole "Benoit doesn't have charisma" argument ; Benoit's mic skills weren't the best, but he definitely had charisma. His charisma was something I like to call "The BROCK charisma" which is obviously named after Brock fuckin' Lesnar.

I call it the BROCK charisma because when BROCK's music hits, you KNOW somebody's getting fucked up or something big is going to go down. Benoit had this intense look to him, like he was (i know this is going to sound absolutely horrendous given the circumstances but..) a "silent killer" of some sorts. That fucking demonic look on his face when he was hitting those German's and slapping on that crossface was impeccable, and it was a special quality that only a handful of people have.

Henry has the BROCK charisma as well as being pretty brilliant on the microphone since his HALL OF PAIN days. As a matter of fact I wouldn't stress to say that in terms of his character he might be one of the best overall full time performers in the company alongside Punk and Bryan, I just need to see more of his current run and I hope he stays for a whole.

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Old 02-16-2013, 07:11 PM   #18258 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Charisma is too ambiguous. People just falsely attribute it to mic skills or someone's look and presentation. Charisma is having something intangible or magnetic about you or your personality that compels people to watch you. Finlay and Benoit are immensely charismatic through their ring work because you knew your eyes would be glued to watching them. They wrestled such an intense, demanding and physical style and in Finlay's case with a lot of creative freedom that their matches had that inherent ability to make you want to pay attention. Mysterio should never speak into a microphone again but I'll be damned if there are more than 10 guys in the last 25 years that I'd willingly devote all my attention to when the bell rings than him.

Charisma is just enshrined in the same sense as psychology in that people become so pre-occupied with attributing a loose defintion of what it means to them that they forget just how truly ambigous and diverse it can actually be.
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Old 02-16-2013, 07:17 PM   #18259 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Lesnar, Benoit, Orton and Mysterio are all charismatic. And none of them would ever deliver an "Austin 3:16" promo. Orton ranges from good to average, Mysterio and Benoit are both serviceable and Lesnar is terrible on the mic. But they have one thing in common: lots of charisma. Which is to prove that this misconception that mic skills=charisma needs to fuck off.

Benoit is the perfect example of having charisma without mic skills. Many people put him in the same category as the Lance Storm's and Dean Malenko's of the world but there's a reason he made it to the top of the mountain and the others didn't. And that's where Benoit's charisma shows. He was able to get people behind him just by displaying his biggest talent to the best of his abilities and along with that, he was also able to show emotions whether it was his intensity and ability to make it believable when he went toe to toe with far bigger competitors or the way he showed just how much the World Title win meant to him at Wrestlemania XX.

Even though he's very good on the mic, I'd add Undertaker to this too. His gimmick doesn't allow him to speak much but he has that charisma which gets him huge reactions as soon as the gong hits and he walks slowly down that ramp or when he sits up.
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Old 02-16-2013, 07:54 PM   #18260 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Can't really add much to the charisma talk except say I agree. If you're able to get a reaction out a crowd, get people to care about you even when you're doing nothing of relevance, you have some level of charisma. All the names mentioned have charisma. On the current roster (besides guys mentioned), you have Punk, Cena, Jericho, Rock, and maybe even Bryan and Sheamus to go with them as well, though Sheamus is a bit of a confusing case. When he wasn't given that much attention, he was very over, but when he started getting focused on and pushed, his reactions dwindled quite a lot, and now since he's been out of the title picture and not the main guy in a feud, his reactions have actually gotten better, like on Raw this week.

Maybe there's more to it than that and there probably is. Charisma I don't think can be simply defined, but in most cases that's how I'd determine it.
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