Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread - Page 1824 - Wrestling Forum : WWE, TNA, Debate League, Wrestling Videos, Women of Wrestling Forums
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Old 02-16-2013, 05:38 PM   #18231 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by AlienBountyHunter View Post
Oh I totally understand that. But nobody thought Orton was walking out with the strap. I think there was a poll result shown just before the match, and about 48% was for Cena, with another 48% for HHH. Which leaves 4% for Orton. I think this came about because most people thought the triple threat was the main event, thus believing a babyface was going to win.

Obviously a load of kids probably voted for their favourites, but still that's a huge difference.
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Originally Posted by Clique View Post
I don't exactly remember where I read it but I heard Flair/Michaels was suppose to close the show but Ric insisted Taker/Edge main event. I'm not sure if that was a rumor or not.

Glad it turned out the way it did. Many people felt Taker should have won the title in the main event a year prior so it's cool we got it after another classic at WM 24.
I don't think it had anything to do with reports. I just figured that's the case since it's a long time tradition and the first time they tried it at WM2000, it turned ugly with trash thrown in the ring.

I think Taker/Batista should have main evented WM23. Not only was it Taker's first title win since 02, he was also the Rumble winner which guarantees a main event title shot. But I'm fine with Edge getting his main event in 24 since that was the best spot and Orton got his anyways in the year after.

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Originally Posted by The Rawk View Post
Benoit's celebration with Eddie at WM20 was an incredible moment, and I would put it above anything Punk has, but I think Punk's victory against Cena at MITB 2011 rivals it. Besides that and Benoit's WHC run, he was a lower main-eventer at best, and all around I'd put Punk's run in the main event above Benoit's as far as impact goes (not that either has made that big of an impact), and it was far more entertaining for me. As far as on an all-time GOAT list, Punk's just done more to be higher. Benoit's career was cut-short and it wasn't a main event big-time career anyway. It was a great journey, building up the card and becoming one of if not the best work-horses in wrestling history, and all of it peaking at WM20 with his World Title win, but Punk has a similar career, only his main event run has amounted to more (imo).

To each his own, I don't think Punk is indisputably above Benoit or anything like that, but he's done enough to surpass him, and surpassing Benoit on an all-time list not pure-wrestling based isn't something that's that big to me. Same with Eddie Guerrero, though I'm a huge mark for Eddie's work all around and as an all-around talent I'd put him above Punk... and pretty much everyone, but his career was cut short and it peaked only at his WWE Title win and outside of that run, he was more or less a career mid-carder/lower main eventer. I was a bigger Eddie mark than I was Punk mark as well. I do think it's closer between Eddie and Punk though and I may even be inclined to personally put Eddie above Punk... maybe.

That's my thoughts on that. And yeah, stop hating Punk. Let us marks of his enjoy him while he's still around (if what he implies his true, he may not have as long as us marks would like left).
Are you saying Eddie's career was 'bigger' than Benoit's? Other than the fact that he's remembered fondly while Benoit has become a tragic topic, I don't think Eddie has anything above his buddy (other than mic skills and more charisma). In terms of accomplishments or otherwise. Unless you value the WWE Championship over the WHC that much even though they were equal in 2004 which is why Benoit's victory was such a huge deal for a title that is nothing more than a midcard title to some people today. I'm not gonna continue arguing on the Punk/Benoit topic since it'll turn too much into "GOAT thread" just without the silly "who had the best reaction from this camera angle" nonsense that's been brought up there and we have our own take on what makes you an all-time great. For me, the fact that Benoit is one of, if not the, greatest performers of all time already gives him the edge above many, many others. He's in my top 20.

Also, you had to say that last sentence, didn't ya? Now I feel like continuing the Punk hating just to get on you guys' nerves.
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Old 02-16-2013, 05:41 PM   #18232 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Clique View Post
Idk, I find it hard comparing guys like Benoit, Steamboat, or Bret to "overall total package" guys who may have had better mic skills, personality, drew more money, etc. Their talent and skills in the ring were so fantastic that for me personally it would put them on a higher level then say a Chris Jericho or Punk who are both exceptional in their own right in the ring.
It depends on what you want I'd think. If you're a "rasslin' mark", and put the most emphasis on in-ring work when constructing an all-time list, it'd make sense that Benoit and Bret (can't speak too much on Steamboat) would be pretty close to the top of the list. Hell, Bret's in my top 10 of all-time, and I hated his mic work, personality, he was a fairly big superstar and decent draw, but nothing exceptional, and yet I put him in the top 10 but Benoit is in a similar package, yet he'd probably only just make my top 30 if I made a list. The main reason being is also booking. Bret was a main eventer for... what was it? 6-7 years? Benoit was a true "main-eventer" for about 6-7 months. To be as objectionable as possible, I try to put more weight on factors that are more facts than opinion. As an overall talent I'd put Punk leagues above Bret, but he doesn't come close to him on an all-time list for me. As far as subjective traits goes, I've always been more a "mic mark" and so I'll lean more towards those guys if the facts prove to be about even for two guys. I'd much rather watch some great promos/segments than matches, and a guy like Punk has many more than Bret/Benoit combined (imo).

It's a tough system to figure out an objective GOAT list and impossible to create a perfect one due to so many factors.

Quote:
Are you saying Eddie's career was 'bigger' than Benoit's? Other than the fact that he's remembered fondly while Benoit has become a tragic topic, I don't think Eddie has anything above his buddy (other than mic skills and more charisma).
Yes, yes I would.

Quote:
Also, you had to say that last sentence, didn't ya? Now I feel like continuing the Punk hating just to get on you guys' nerves.


Oh well, I brought it on myself.


To get off the topic, how about some top 10 lists... actually, may as well tackle Benoit now (WWE-only if possible... just so I can use some of the matches for my list if I've forgotten them).

Here's mine:

1) vs. Angle RR 03 (GMOAT)
2) vs. Jericho RR 01
3) vs. HBK vs. HHH WM20
4) vs. Austin SD 2001
5) vs. Finlay JD 2006
6) MITB WM21
7) vs. HBK vs. HHH BL 2004
8) NYR 05 EC
9) vs. Orton SS 2004
10) vs. Rock FL 2001
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Old 02-16-2013, 05:55 PM   #18233 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

I saw someone briefly comparing Benoit and Eddie, can't be bothered to get into the whole career debate in terms of legacy and impact but I'll go on record that Eddie was a better worker than Benoit and by a fair bit imo.

Better heel, better face, a better all round performer in terms of the versatility he brought and just someone who I find to better at the subtle attributes than Benoit. Not doing a disservice to Benoit, but aside from bumping and the way he could work a more violent style I'm just not sure he has enough to be a better worker than Eddie. Hard to say who was a better seller. As a heel I found Eddie could emote on a far greater scale in terms of reacting to the changing pace and dynamic within a match and honestly apart from Austin I'm not sure there's a guy in company history who was as good as Eddie in terms of reacting and adjusting his mannerisms to reflect the changing tone of a match.

As a face he was a tremendous bumper, knew how to emote and time his comebacks impeccably and in my eyes could be seen as equal to Benoit in that department, though I wouldn't begrudge anyone for thinking Benoit was a better seller.
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Old 02-16-2013, 06:00 PM   #18234 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Eddie over Benoit every day.

Not a negative towards Benoit. I'd take Eddie over most workers.
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Old 02-16-2013, 06:04 PM   #18235 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

I'm also on the Eddie>Benoit side, though both would land in my top 5 atm probably.
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Old 02-16-2013, 06:06 PM   #18236 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

I don't see the issue with taking Eddie over Benoit. I'm a far bigger fan of the latter but both were so damn good, it's unbelievable. To be fair, Benoit actually has the edge over Eddie in terms of who he got to work with which is rare for him. That just shows how underutilized both were. Eddie was just starting to be used more to his abilities from 2004 on but Benoit was sadly dropped down the card permanently after his title run was over. I can never understand Vince's mindset of making Benoit a complete midcarder after New Year's Revolution 05. He was one of the few who had the charisma to get people to support him without cutting lengthy promos and even then, he was not that bad on the mic to restrict him from being in feuds that they invest in. Seen far worse mic workers be handed more than him.
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Old 02-16-2013, 06:08 PM   #18237 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

There's a reason people cite him as one of the greatest, sadly too many idiots attribute that to his premature passing and not the body of work and immense talent he displayed over the course of his career. Christ when you actually get down to guys who had most of their success/best body of work in WWE is there anyone better than Eddie? Mysterio is obviously someone that jumps out in terms of consistency and I adore him, but I'd still take Eddie on account of the versatility as a heel and face as well as how he just flourished as a true performer with enough smart and subtle work alongside the charisma and theatrics to play to a crowd and control them.

I'd take him over Austin, Michaels, Cena, Bret, Owen, Hennig, Taker, Finlay, Regal, Orton, Savage, Backlund etc. Guys like Lawler, Flair, Funk & Steamboat who shared tremendous success predominantly outside of WWE I would exclude at this present time, so of guys who people associate as having their best years working for WWE I don't think there's a worker better than Eddie. Just immensely gifted at working as the comedic heel, the pyschotic and violent loony with a sense of structure and character work to make the match gripping and tense instead of cartoony, the heroic babyface to keep people glued to the screen, a gifted and versatile worker constantly adjusting his formula and craft to respond to his positioning on the card, immense main event title worker, underrated and overlooked tag team worker, able to deliver stellar performances in a wide array of settings from Big Show 4/15/04, to JBL Judgement Day '04 to Vengeance '03 vs Benoit to Halloween Havoc '97 vs Mysterio to 2005 GAB and 6/23 vs Mysterio, to NWO '04 vs Lesnar to his work in Japan against Benoit & Liger to basically crafting a top 5 Jericho singles match all by himself at Fall Brawl '97 and delivering a world class performance with 90% of the match stemming from Eddie.
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Old 02-16-2013, 06:15 PM   #18238 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

As far as a total package goes, I really don't know if I'd put anyone above Eddie, for the reasons WOOLCOCK described. He could do it all and do it all extremely well. Wrestling, promos, face, and heel. He was incredibly charismatic and natural in any role he played.

His death shook me up a bit as a 12 year old. I to that point never suffered any close family deaths. Any family who had died I was never close with/never saw, and as sad as it may sound, Eddie's death was definitely the saddest death for me at that point. I was a huge fan and at the time he was probably my third or fourth favorite superstar behind Taker, Orton, and maybe Edge.
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Old 02-16-2013, 06:17 PM   #18239 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

I'd take Guerrero over Benoit by a bit. Honestly I think Benoit has less periods where it looked like he was doing nothing of any note (Eddie from 99-01 was fun at times but really, what did he DO?), and was MAYYYYBE more consistant. But with two really consistent guys with tons of matches you can point to, peak v peak is good talking point and Eddie at his peak is better than Benoit ever was. Benoit also has those match-ups with Malenko and Angle that I fucking hated, and not only because of Malenko, but because of Benoit. Then again I'd probably hate the Eddie/Malenko matches if I watched them again. Guerrero adds way more energy to his matches than Benoit, too.

Year by year, who I'd take 'n' shit:
Pre-92 I won't really bother with right now.


92: Benoit
93: Probably Eddie.
94: Benoit
95: Benoit
96: Benoit
97: Eddie
98: Benoit
99: Benoit
00: Benoit
01: Benoit
02: Eddie
03: Eddie
04: Shit........I'll give it to Benoit, but....shit......if Eddie wasn't saddled after July he'd have it. He DOES have the worst thing in the history of existence v Angle at SummerSlam, though, and that wasn't just Angle sucking shit.
05: Eddie

That's 9-5 in Benoit's favour which seems like a huge gap, but Eddie in 97, 05 and possibly the first half of 04 is fucking any period of Benoit, easily. If I had to rank all of those years Eddie would have top 2, and maybe even #3 depending on who I choose in 2004. So Eddie would have #1, #2, and #4 of that. Benoit has 06 which I think could have been his best year if he stuck around, and that first half of 07. But fuck, peak Eddie Guerrero fucks with most wrestlers ever; Benoit being one of them.

It's a toss up and I change my mind now and then, but I'll take Eddie. I doubt if I made a best wrestlers list they'd have a gap of more than five-seven wrestlers between them.


I would take Rey over both of them fwiw.
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Old 02-16-2013, 06:17 PM   #18240 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Eddie is probably the only guy I could say has Taker beat. If you know my thought process on wrestling just a little bit, you'll know enormity of that statement.

It's really all I have to say.
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