Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread - Page 1674 - Wrestling Forum : WWE, TNA, Debate League, Wrestling Videos, Women of Wrestling Forums
 
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post #16731 of 20566 (permalink) Old 02-06-2013, 03:08 PM
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Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Mysterio/Guerrero GAB 2005 proves why the amount of moves and holds don't mean shit in pro wrestling.

Guerrero played a true heel in that match. I love how he was getting some cheers at the beginning but the from the moment he started toying with Dominic, everyone started to hate him. Well I know I did. Man, Eddie was such a dick in that match.

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post #16732 of 20566 (permalink) Old 02-06-2013, 03:14 PM
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Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by WOOLCOCK View Post
Its the least of their matches. Doesn't get an extended amount of time and is more of an angle advancer. Think Jericho/Punk WM 28 in the opening with Jericho goading Punk into a potential DQ and make it 15 minutes instead of 5 and you have a rough illustration.

Eh, as I said I found the only strong matches to be when Christian was the face. Minute he turned I just think the pairing lost a lot of strengths Christian brings as a babyface and the matches lacked that spark, build and compelling work that made the Smackdown and moreso OTL encounters so special and engrossing. Orton's Viper character in part is the problem. It forces him to be more languid and monotonous in terms of his ring approach and methodical work and it just sucks any bit of tension, passion or excitement out of a match. Admittedly he does look far more blatantly casual these days, probably in no small part because of the suspensions and position he finds himself in on the card.

Doesn't help the guy's body is brittle with all the nagging injuries so the chances of him breaking away from the methodical style which is likely done to preserve his body isn't happening anytime soon. I don't even think Orton going heel drastically fixes the problem. He's better by default as the heel since he isn't a good enough babyface worker to emote well enough to bring a crowd into a match and his comebacks lack the flair and fire that is needed in a babyface comeback. That being said, 2009 Orton outside of the odd match and performance was a far cry from 2004-06 heel Orton in terms of interesting and engaging control segments.
I like Orton's methodical style. I loved him as the Legend Killer but I'm probably one of the few who liked him just as much as The Viper. But it doesn't work if he's face. That's why I think a heel turn will sort of help fix some problems at least. As far as the Christian matches go, agreed that they take a hit once Christian turns. That much was obvious from the drop in quality between OTL and CP. I loved the story of the SD and OTL matches though, just loved them. One of the rare instances where DAT MANAGING MANAGER OF SMACKRAW BOOKAH TEE is bearable as a commentator. Aside from the ring action itself, I give kudos to the commentary team for adding that little extra kick. They were great. I can remember really liking the Summerslam match though. We'll see whenever I get around to watching it.

And since people are talking about it, I'd say OTL is both Orton and Christian's best singles non-gimmick match. Actually, I can't think of a better match for either of them tbh. I'm also probably the only person who has this match rated so highly. I just loved it.

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post #16733 of 20566 (permalink) Old 02-06-2013, 03:16 PM
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Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Orton's best non gimmick match is vs Mysterio, Smackdown 4/7/06. Coincidentally its also his best ever match imo.

Cal is spot on with Christian though. Swagger/Christian 2/24/09 will forever be the mantle for which all Christian babyface peformances will be measured against. Such brilliant storytelling of the veteran vs rookie dynamic, terrific selling by Christian throughout and into his comeback, Swagger using his agility smartly to counteract Christian's intelligence, the way in which both men use their respective strengths to constantly seize momentum and how the control segment and Christian injury plays into the opportunistic finish. Its just flawless.

Agreed on Eddie vs Mysterio GAB being a great match and Eddie performance, second best in their feud behind 6/23/05. Eddie is a remarkably sleazy bastard and plays a true despicable heel and its just a masterclass in character work and how to add so many unique touches into his work in playing off the crowd and building the match around Rey's comeback. I say it everyime the match gets brought up, but Eddie getting crotched and then readjusting his tights to loosen his crotch a bit is just the sort of intricate and attention to detail visual only Eddie could think to add to the match.
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post #16734 of 20566 (permalink) Old 02-06-2013, 03:18 PM
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Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

I loved Orton's match with Taker at WM 21. I rate that a 3 and a half or maybe 4 stars. I love the chokeslam into the RKO counter, probably the best moment in the match.

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post #16735 of 20566 (permalink) Old 02-06-2013, 03:18 PM Thread Starter
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post #16736 of 20566 (permalink) Old 02-06-2013, 03:22 PM
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Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Starbuck View Post
I like Orton's methodical style. I loved him as the Legend Killer but I'm probably one of the few who liked him just as much as The Viper. But it doesn't work if he's face. That's why I think a heel turn will sort of help fix some problems at least. As far as the Christian matches go, agreed that they take a hit once Christian turns. That much was obvious from the drop in quality between OTL and CP. I loved the story of the SD and OTL matches though, just loved them. One of the rare instances where DAT MANAGING MANAGER OF SMACKRAW BOOKAH TEE is bearable as a commentator. Aside from the ring action itself, I give kudos to the commentary team for adding that little extra kick. They were great. I can remember really liking the Summerslam match though. We'll see whenever I get around to watching it.
Eh, I like a slower and more basic style generally. But I just found there to be a disconnection between Orton's control segments in 04-06 and 09. As the Legend Killer he'd work basic holds but he'd constantly crank on the hold and try to make it 'more than a hold'. In the Mysterio Smackdown match he works the headlock to maintain position and control but between the way he adjusts his technique and stance combined with Mysterio constantly looking for an escape the hold becomes an intrigue in Rey's struggle and how he can escape and regain the momentum. Orton in that time would also pull hair, blatantly cheat with the referee distracted, use the ropes for leverage, apply a cheap tactic such as eye raking to halt a comeback etc. He wrestled like a crafty and irritating heel that felt like a territories esque performer.

As the Viper, I just never felt the methodical style was implemented or performed as well aside from a couple of instances, namely the I Quit match vs Cena which is Orton's magnus opus in terms of methodical character work. Whether he's to blame or his opponents just didn't do enough of a good job working in the hold to try and create struggle and a mini story I can't say, but it definitely felt like he used them more as basic restholds which didn't advance the story as opposed to his younger days, where he was constantly building a theme and story around the basic holds in a way that made them matter in the greater context. That's about as good as I can explain my reasoning tbh.
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post #16737 of 20566 (permalink) Old 02-06-2013, 03:26 PM
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Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Agreed w/ Starbuck. Over The Limit is probably Christian and Randy's best non gimmick match ever if I do say so myself, although I'm very high on Orton's Wrestlemania XXI match with Taker. Orton hasn't really had that many OMFGEPICZ!*! matches so to speak, but when the wheels are rolling he's one consistent motherfucker. I can remember when in 2011 I would look forward to catching his matches but as 2012 rolled around became completely disjointed and disinterested in what he was doing because it was lacking quality.

I'm a fan of all of the Christian/Orton matches TBH, from the first SD match to the last SD CAGE match I'd have them all at atleast *** 1/2, and probably the best pure SERIES of 2011 as Punk/Cena was more sporadic and all over the place at times despite having better matches.

When it comes to Christian it's pretty sad to say this , but I missed alot of what would be considered his "peak" in 2009/2010 due to my complete exile from the WWE product because of my complete RAGE at where the product was (Trips losing the belt to JEFF HARDY, PUNK being pushed to the wayside) and only caught the bigger shows such as Mania XXV and XXVI, meaning I missed a ton of his ECW run.





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post #16738 of 20566 (permalink) Old 02-06-2013, 03:32 PM
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Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

The only thing 2012 Randy Orton I enjoyed was his match with Kane at Extreme Rules. Everything else, meh.

Orton just accomplished so much at a young age that he's actually a veteran despite being only 32 years old. Given his tenure with the company he is a that point where he should be bumped back down to midcard/upper midcard at put over the new guys. But at 32? Jesus, being the youngest World Heavyweight Champion is both a blessing and a curse.

But the way WWE's been booking, it doesn't even feel like Orton is in a position to put over anymore. It seems as if he's the one who needs to be put over. Randy Orton is a strange case alright. Has there ever been anyone in the history of WWE who has fallen as far as him? 7 years ago (God when you say it like that) the guy was at his peak. But he was 26 back then. You would at least think 32 would be his peak but damn, I guess it was 26.

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post #16739 of 20566 (permalink) Old 02-06-2013, 03:33 PM
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Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

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Based on what I remember, Undertaker/Kane is likely the only thing close to a TV MOTY imo, and that's only about ***1/4 . I can only really remember PPV matches frmo that year.
You should do a 2008 ECW thing like you did with 06 SD and Raw. I haven't got TONS of it done myself, but it's a show with Matt Hardy, Finlay, Mark Henry, Evan Bourne consistently wrestling week to week. And hey...you might like a Chavo v CM Punk or Kane or Bourne match.

Man fuck the world Chavo had a really good 2008.




(I'm probably not making him want to watch it very much )





That Taker/Kane match is awesome, though.

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post #16740 of 20566 (permalink) Old 02-06-2013, 03:41 PM
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Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

I still really like Orton's PPV matches and that's about it. From a week to week TV standpoint he's been fucking horrendous in terms of establishing his character and putting off even AVERAGE matches. Feels like he should be a "healthy scratch" sometimes and just left off of the program altogether, and with Sheamus not in the chamber it leads me to believe that Orton's not going over, leading Orton to ANOTHER lower card Mania match, best case scenario being a match with Sheamus and the worst case scenario being..... BAD.

Maybe it has something to do with the fact that Orton's biggest match ever completely BOMBED in the main event of Wrestlemania ? Hmmmm...... I doubt Trips would take the blame for that one backstage seeing how one day he's gonna eventually OWNDAFUCKIN'PLACE .

Orton needs to be taken off TV and given the Big Show treatment ; send him down to NXT or some shit to make him realize he isn't so damn big after all. It worked for Show, and if it wouldn't work for Orton than he can fuck off to TNA because by then he wouldn't have much credibility to give them a boost either.





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