Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread - Page 1377 - Wrestling Forum : WWE, TNA, ROH, Wrestling Videos, Women of Wrestling Forums
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Old 01-10-2013, 06:41 PM   #13761 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Lady Killer View Post
I would never.

Cena's comebacks are fucking terrible on paper as well but his at least evoke a bit of a dramatic element when in the right environment and with the right opponent, whereas Orton's always seems to lack any sort of effort or real meaning beyond simply going through the motions.
As I said, its all down to the work in the middle section of the match. Selling the beating, making your situation look hopeless and desperate, milking the workover and timing certain mini comebacks to draw the crowd into your revival and then timing the comeback to illicit that reaction.

In many ways the best wrestling comebacks are the ones that play to a formula. It draws a viewer in because they know what's coming, seeing Lawler drop down the straps and unload with great punch after great punch was what every fan in the building wanted to see. Part of Lawler's innate charm is that he can work typically a very similar finishing stretch in most of his matches, built around punches, the fist drop and the piledriver but still find ways to sell and create an emotional attachment during the middle of the match so his comeback feels earned and more importantly something the fans want to see.

When you play to a formula you've got to be able to try and find ways to keep fans invested and interested in spite of not changing up the bulk of your final offence. Sadly Orton doesn't really create an emotional investment and his comebacks never feel like he's pulled the match back from the brink. This also stems from a lot of WWE heels today not really working a great control segment. Most of them feel like an extension of the match and just quietly progressing to the finishing stretch, rather than seeking to create heat on the heel and work the crowd into a frenzy.

@ Yeah1993: tbh I always look at the best Cena comebacks in the eyes of the young fans. Obviously stuff like the Lesnar match highlights how great he is at selling the beating and making you feel like any comeback is something truly earnt, but even at its worst I find at least a sense of urgency in his comeback rather than Orton's languid moving about the ring at a pace that kills any sense of excitement or unpredictability. Both suffer though from the heels of today being pretty piss poor generally at constructing a compelling heat segment. Is there a babyface going in WWE whose comebacks 90% of the time don't just feel like they're meandering into the finishing stretch? I want to say Rey because of the way he continually bumps and makes himself look so vulnerable, Christian as well as Masters probably fitted into that category when they were working TV every week as well. Last one I can really think of was Punk vs Henry and Sheamus vs Show HIAC in terms of a babyface clearly structuring the match around his comeback and onslaught.

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Old 01-10-2013, 06:47 PM   #13762 (permalink)
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Cena did a very good job of this against Lesnar.
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Old 01-10-2013, 06:51 PM   #13763 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Yep and Lesnar near enough matched him in terms of putting on a compelling and gripping control segment that flowed brilliantly and built superbly into the Cena comeback and eventual victory. The problem with a lot of today's WWE matches is that they seem obsessed with perfecting the finishing stretch that very little before it seems to matter. The heels tend to run through an array of basic holds and there never really feels like anything dramatic will develop in the middle, but rather its just a placeholder before the quick comeback and counter-heavy finishing stretch.

Compare Christian and Masters and how they're matches were built around the necessity and struggle in making a comeback compared to your typical match today where there feels like very little of note happens before the finishing stretch.
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Old 01-10-2013, 06:52 PM   #13764 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Lesnar might be the only individual BADASS enough to make the crowd actually CHEER Cena and provoke a Super-Cena like comeback. Think about it ; How fucking good is Lesnar at his job that he can come back as such a huge name and still get heat IN CHICAGO AGAINST JOHN FUCKING CENA ?!?!?!

Fucking BROCKTAGON. Best in the FUCKING World when he wants to be.
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Old 01-10-2013, 06:53 PM   #13765 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Comparing most people's babyface comebacks to Jerry Lawler's really doesn't do them any good. Cena looks like the Ultimate Warrior in comparison.

I feel like Cena's comebacks are often out-of-the-blue and pop up to 'get to the finishing stretch' a lot of the time. I just hate it. Like I said he's actually really good working AT the bottom and slowly moving his way upwards with the Bob Backlund-like power spots (usually without actually getting the advantage), but when he's transitioning from selling ----> signature moveset, and doing the moveset itself....fuck it. I don't want to watch that.

IDK how invested he really gets THAT MANY of the fans. You get so many of them booing at that particular moment that it's become a running joke for seven years and one of the main things he's targeted for. Orton's usually doesn't have that kind of response, even if it's just as shitty/even shittier.
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Old 01-10-2013, 06:57 PM   #13766 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Can't decide which is my pick for GOAT Heel control segment in the WWE ; HHH from HHH-Jericho FL 00, or BORK's awesome control segment from Extreme Rules 2012. They're almost tied for me honestly. Trips's dissection of Jericho is something to behold in that match.
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Old 01-10-2013, 06:59 PM   #13767 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

I was just using Lawler more as an argument that a formulaic comeback that plays to patented signature spots and offence can still be really engaging and a bonus of a match, so long as the work before it is good enough to make the comeback feel earnt and not something easily achieved.

I think its just a stylistic preference tbh. Cena's comebacks at their worst are ridiculously bad and lacking in drama or any sense of accomplishment, but I dunno I'd rather watch Cena's worst comeback than Orton's worst comeback just because I find Cena a more expressive performer compared to Orton and his languid, monotone and uninspiring comebacks.

Really could do with better heels these days, because you're right that Cena's strength lies in making his struggle one that grows over the course of the match and peaks at his comeback. Most WWE matches these days are either rushed or built solely around the finishing stretch that the most important section of the match (the middle) gets overlooked and basically consisting of little more than slowing the pace and waiting for the finishing stretch.

Its a shame as well how different the WWE TV style of matches is going. I remember back in 06 on Smackdown you'd get a real solid structure building to the transition spot, the heat segment and the finishing stretch. Today you've got commercials 2/3 minutes into a match, no real build or pacing to the transition spot (and its not like they even do many impressive transition bumps anymore) and the whole flow of a match as a result really suffers.
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Old 01-10-2013, 07:00 PM   #13768 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Might need to conjure up Yeah1993's post about why HHH = GOAT from the GOAT thread to help you make your decision.

edit Yeah1993
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Old 01-10-2013, 07:04 PM   #13769 (permalink)
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best heel segment was by triple H

either in one of his matches vs flair or summerslam vs eugene
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Old 01-10-2013, 07:05 PM   #13770 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Summerslam vs Eugene is so awesome
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