Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread - Page 1360 - Wrestling Forum : WWE, TNA, Debate League, Wrestling Videos, Women of Wrestling Forums
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Old 01-09-2013, 02:00 PM   #13591 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Perhaps I should give Brock/Trips another watch?

I remember being rather underwhelmed with the show as a whole after Jericho/Ziggler and I was in bad back pain at the time so many it skewed my perception but I just remember not liking it the way I really enjoyed Cena/Lesnar.
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Old 01-09-2013, 02:04 PM   #13592 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

WM 24 is GOAT

Finaly/JBL
MITB
Flair/HBK
Cena/HHH/Orton
Mayweather/Show
Taker/Edge

Jesus Christ, what more can I ask for? And putting Flair/HBK was a great idea and made perfect booking sense. At the time, I was like "WTF? So early" but I understand things better now and looking back on it, it was truly the best way to end the first half of the greatest Wrestlemania of all time.
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Old 01-09-2013, 02:06 PM   #13593 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Brock/HHH had good moments, pretty much anything after the table spot and HHH exploiting the stomach injury. Brock sold the pain as well as he did the few comebacks Cena made at ER, just enough to look ferocious as a monster but recognising pain and realising he might be in for a bigger battle than he anticipated. Still, the few good moments just didn't really feel enough to make it a great match. Pace was plodding, they tried to sell HHH as being in some potentially dangeorus environment but had Brock work a more methodical and less unhinged assault like he did at ER, basically it just came off to me as them trying to sell the story of Brock being a monster and HHH being in a perilous position but not committing to truly working a match that reflected that story. HHH never looked as helpless and overwhelmed as Cena, and that just took me out of the match.

Whilst we're discussing Finlay, people need to watch the Matt Hardy match from Smackdown '07. Its amazing and will definitely be on my ballot for the best of the decade poll:

Quote:
Matt Hardy vs Finlay - (WWE Smackdown 06/22/2007)

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2c...2#.UO3Nm3cybk8

Tremendous, tremendous match which right now could end up as high as my top 50, I loved it that much. Hardy might be one of the most underrated workers of the decade at least in the WWE because people either remember him for his Hardy Boyz days or his supposed mental breakdown in recent years, but in 2006-2008 especially he was having regularly good-great matches with a variety of opponents and he's in no way carried by Finlay here. There's some great little character moments here that you come to expect in Finlay matches, things like them struggling to force a break in a lock-up in the corner and Finlay trying to intimidate Hardy who motions him to 'bring it on', just really set the stage for what was to occur. Finlay throws a couple of vicious World of Sport esque forearms when Hardy goes for consecutive arm wringers, and Hardy's sell of the first one was Fujiwara esque: just collapses and stumbles into the ropes like his legs have just crumbled beneath him. Match really takes off however when Hardy gets yanked off the tope rope and lands awkwardly on his knee, which Cole and JBL point out took 10 months off of his career in 2004. Finlay is meticulous and devastating on offence with a variety of unique takedowns and submissions targeting the leg, but Hardy's selling is legit one of the finest selling performances I've seen in this time period.

He just constantly hobbles and barely puts any pressure on the left leg, there's this one super moment where he goes to clothesline Finlay and essentially just collapses into him as he attempts to move a couple of yards. Finlay's entire control segment is just incredibly engaging with him being a vicious bastard and doing various unique touches to sell his desire to cripple Hardy, stuff like him removing the knee brace and finding ways to utilise every part of the ringside area such as a nifty spot where he just launches Hardy knee first into the steps and then has this awesome forced apology to the referee. Finish is excellent with them teasing a Finlay screwjob via the shillelagh only for Hardy to catch a cocky Finlay with a sudden twist of fate for the flash victory.

Incredible selling performance from Hardy complimented by a unique and vicious workover by Finlay, both men brought the violence with some tremendous strikes (Hardy throws this AWESOME punch combo which has Finlay rocking against the ropes) and just lay the match out with some excellent character traits that develop as the match progresses. Everything you can want in a wrestling match and will definitely do well on my list.
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Old 01-09-2013, 02:07 PM   #13594 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by sharkboy22 View Post
WM 24 is GOAT

Finaly/JBL
MITB
Flair/HBK
Cena/HHH/Orton
Mayweather/Show
Taker/Edge

Jesus Christ, what more can I ask for? And putting Flair/HBK was a great idea and made perfect booking sense. At the time, I was like "WTF? So early" but I understand things better now and looking back on it, it was truly the best way to end the first half of the greatest Wrestlemania of all time.
Completely agreed. It's my favorite show of all time.

Only wish Batista/GOAT would have been better. Give it a gimmick and it's amazing, imo.
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Old 01-09-2013, 02:12 PM   #13595 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

I wish I could have appreciated Matt's work at the time but Jeff was always the more charismatic one, you know?

A match I was watching the other day (not really a great match by any mean) that really made me say "Damn, Matt was a gem of a worker" was a match he had with Orton on RAW in '08 the night of Flair's Retirement.

Not to mention his encounters with Edge. That steel cage match is definitely one of the best.
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Old 01-09-2013, 02:17 PM   #13596 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Matt was a great worker between 05-08. He really made the Edge matches spectacular imo with his selling and expressive performances, though Edge does put in one of his most impressive performances at Summerslam with how violent his assault of Matt is. He's never struck me as a guy who had particularly great offence, but everything from his headbutts to his kicks to Matt looked great. Hardy's selling topped it, but he's truly overlooked when it comes to selling and for me he's far greater than Jeff at it. Jeff bumps and ragdolls, but Matt will bump well but really pull you into his matches with his long term selling. He's also really astute at pacing and structuring his matches and has some pretty choice offence of his own.

Shame people remember him for the bumbling madman he became on Twitter, rather than the promising worker he was for 3 years before his weight issues and mental breakdown.
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Old 01-09-2013, 02:20 PM   #13597 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

I always preferred Matt even when they were a tag team. Didn't give a flying fuck about Jeff at any point of his career lol.
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Old 01-09-2013, 02:24 PM   #13598 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Selling is the single most important aspect of pro wrestling, especially when you're the babyface. As a babyface, you're main objective should be to sell. A lot of babyfaces just don't understand or maybe they just don't know, just how damn important it is to sell. That's why the business suffers from a lack of good babyfaces. As a bayface, your selling, which goes beyond just holding the limb for 2 seconds, is what gets you over. Selling isn't just holding your arm for 2 seconds when it's kicked. Selling is in the facial expressions, it's in your body language, you shouldn't be doing leap frogs over the turnbuckle 20 minutes into a match cause obviously you can't be that hurt! The key to being a good babyface is to sell. Not do a bunch of cool looking moves. There's an old saying "If you're the babyface you can lose every match, but once you know how to sell, you're a superhero"

Selling is what makes or breaks a match for me cause selling is what creates the suspension of disbelief. Great selling creates the illusion, the magic that is pro wrestling.
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Old 01-09-2013, 02:28 PM   #13599 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by WOOLCOCK View Post
Brock/HHH had good moments, pretty much anything after the table spot and HHH exploiting the stomach injury. Brock sold the pain as well as he did the few comebacks Cena made at ER, just enough to look ferocious as a monster but recognising pain and realising he might be in for a bigger battle than he anticipated. Still, the few good moments just didn't really feel enough to make it a great match. Pace was plodding, they tried to sell HHH as being in some potentially dangeorus environment but had Brock work a more methodical and less unhinged assault like he did at ER, basically it just came off to me as them trying to sell the story of Brock being a monster and HHH being in a perilous position but not committing to truly working a match that reflected that story. HHH never looked as helpless and overwhelmed as Cena, and that just took me out of the match.
Agree with this, pretty much all the way. The match got much better after the Lesnar table spot, but before that it was getting pretty bad imo, with the only redeeming part of that match to that point being Lesnar taking off the gloves, which was awesome, but was a gem in a pile of shit... well... pile of shit is being harsh since I don't think the match was THAT bad to that point, but you get the idea.

I just don't understand how people put it at ****+ (not to say anyone who ranks it that high is wrong, I just don't understand from my personal experiences watching the match). It was much tamer than Brock/Cena in the brutality aspect. It pales in comparison to the storytelling of Taker/HHH, I don't think the action and psychology was anywhere near as good as Punk/Bryan OTL, and it wasn't as hard-hitting as Show/Sheamus HIAC imo. Now granted, I'm using some of the best matches/the best match from those respective categories, but still nothing stood out in the match to me as exceptional besides Lesnar's selling of the stomach. Everything else just felt weak to me. And then you add what WOOLCOCK said, and the match just ends up being a lot more disappointing than it could've been.
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Old 01-09-2013, 02:34 PM   #13600 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by sharkboy22 View Post
Selling is what makes or breaks a match for me cause selling is what creates the suspension of disbelief. Great selling creates the illusion, the magic that is pro wrestling.
Pretty much. Selling is what invokes drama, emotional investment and which drives the comeback and heat section to greater levels. As you mentioned though, its important to understand the depth in great selling. Its not just selling a limb like your life depends on it, its knowing how and when to react with your mannerisms and facial expressions. Selling the desperation to mount a comeback, selling the anger and fire in your comeback with well executed but energetic offence, as a heel you need to know when to shift your emotions, when to be cocky, arrogant, angry, fearful and eventually desperate.

It annoys me when people think selling and storytelling only lends itself to limbwork and heat sections. Storytelling can come through the contrast in characters. Take World of Sport for example. Mostly pure grappling, but numerous guys are presented as better grapplers and that creates an underdog/hierarchy where you can root for one guy to score an upset. The Brits also don't get enough credit for how they time the grappling, the running of the ropes and the nearfalls to create the drama. I don't know how anyone could watch Steve Grey vs Clive Myers, essentially the British precursor to Flair/Steamboat and not pick up on the storytelling and character dynamic pitting the working class and humble Grey against the international superstar in Myers.
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