Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread - Page 1117 - Wrestling Forum : WWE, TNA, Debate League, Wrestling Videos, Women of Wrestling Forums
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Old 12-13-2012, 01:02 PM   #11161 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Catching up on some of the recent topics.

Don't care for Del Rio. Or Barrett. Don't think either of them are bad but I have little to no interest in them. Can only think of a handful of matches they've had that I like.

Agree w/The Reindeer Killer about Punk/Jericho at Extreme Rules. They did some good stuff but as a whole it didn't come together as a great match to me. Their Wrestlemania bout is way better.

I'd happily call HHH/Brock a good match. Thought they did a good job of making it feel like a big time fight and the psychology was on point. I've seen it twice now and it wasn't plodding or boring to me at all which is a criticism I've heard of it on here. Doesn't come close to touching Cena/Lesnar but I don't see the point in comparing the two other than saying the Cena match is better. They're two completely different matches, as they should have been.

Haven't given it much thought but calling Punk a top 10 guy at this stage of his career seems very premature to me. I'd put him above people like Edge and Angle in a heartbeat but he has to do more for me to talk about him in the same breath as guys like Michaels, Foley and Christian, never mind greats like Benoit, Guerrero, Austin and Hart. I'm only talking WWE here. Including other North American promotions he's nowhere near.
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Old 12-13-2012, 01:06 PM   #11162 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Which is why it's almost impossible to discuss lol. Maybe it's best if everybody just goes the subjective route and puts forward an argument as to why they've ranked people the way they have. I don't know. I don't think that sticking arbitrary numbers on guys works at all though if I'm being honest. To the HHH and Punk example, yeah, somebody might have them ranked equally when it comes to the numbers but, and I'm not just saying this because I mark for him, but I don't see how anybody could objectively put Punk over HHH on a GOAT list which is where my main conflict in the whole debate arises. You might personally enjoy Punk more as worker or whatever and that's fine. But I don't think there's any argument to be made for putting him above the likes of HHH or Taker or HBK or even Cena and the list goes on and on. Why? Well, that's where these objective factors start coming into play to muddle the whole thing up lol.

EDIT - Punk/Jericho ER > Punk/Jericho Mania based purely on the fact that I actually remember it and wasn't dead in my chair while it was happening lol.
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Old 12-13-2012, 01:07 PM   #11163 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Yeah, I remember talking to you right after the Hunter/BROCK match took place. We were on the same page. Doesn't come close to Cena/BROCK, but why does it need to? Both matches are great, with one being clearly better than the other. Doesn't make H/BROCK bad. I loved the psychology of H literally stumbling into Lesnar's weakness (stomach). Brock's selling was fucking awesome. I seriously thought his gut was fucked.

edit @ Starbuck. Exactly. That was my point to using that example. Even if someone ranked them equally using the in-ring/mic work dichotomy, I still don't see how that same person could objectively think Punk is higher up on an all-time GOAT WWE list.
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Old 12-13-2012, 01:07 PM   #11164 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Ehh, I just have zero interest in drawing and people (not you two, most of the retards in the GOAT thread) who obsess over it. To me, I don't care about drawing and selling arenas. Sure I'd hope the company I support does well business wise to continue operating, but I don't really care if a string of excellent PPVS draw less than 100,000 or a string of great RAWs don't pop more than a 2.5 rating. Its all about what's presented to me on screen and the peformance of the wrestlers that excites me. Anything else, such as crowd attendance, ratings and buyrates are just things that can make for nice reading to know a well built feud got over and was a success. To me, my stance is if I get a great feud I couldn't care less how it goes over on a mainstream level. Its probably a selfish attitude admittedly, but I'm watching wrestling as an individual hoping to get angles/matches that appeal to my tastes alone. Punk/Bryan had a horrendous build going into Over The Limit, but all I cared about was seeing how they wrestled and the match they put on. I'd sooner get more matches like that in the main event than the sort of feud which might get over more with casuals, but which ultimately will struggle to entertain me personally segment/match wise.

I just find that objectively, it should be a wrestlers' performance that earns them credit in terms of an all time great. Unless you have stock in WWE I personally don't see why ratings and buyrates matter in the grand scheme of things. I admit that I hope my favourites do well when pushed because obviously if ratings plummet they'll likely struggle to keep getting pushed, but so long as they're put in a position where they get to wrestle regularly I'll remain content about their position. Someone like Mcintyre is a great example. I'd love to see him wrestle higher up the card and be given more time/freedom to wrestle, but if they gave him a midcard title and let him be a midcard workhorse I'd still be happy he was being given attention and presented in such a way.

I should probably stop soon because honestly I don't want to get dragged into a debate about drawing. I appreciate why it matters to some, but for me its irrelevant in any argument about who is a better natural talent. It has its merit in ranking wrestlers all time by success and impact, but when you're actually concentrating on the wrestling and performance aspect, its irrelevant.
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Old 12-13-2012, 01:17 PM   #11165 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

I don't think we're stupid enough to fall into a debate about drawing lol. Or are we.....

Nah. I enjoy discussing that aspect of the wrestling business as much as everything else. Don't really know why, it just interests me. And while I do think it has its place in the GOAT discussion, I don't think it's the only factor to be considered and should come in above everything else. Of course the actual wrestling and individual talent of a performer comes into the discussion. It would be silly to even try to talk about this without talking about talent and ability. I guess I'd just rather have a couple of factors to consider when trying to come up with a GOAT list rather than it being based on just 2 or even 1. Having a purely ZOMG DAT DRAW based list isn't fair to the Eddie Guerrero's of the world who could wrestle circles around anybody but didn't captivate the masses on the level of others. On the same token, having a purely ZOMG DAT WRASSLIN based list isn't fair to the Hulk Hogan's of the world who actually did captivate the masses despite blowing chunks in the ring lol. I would fall somewhere in the middle when it comes to my own personal opinion which is probably why I've never truly attempted to make a list. It's just too damn hard.
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Old 12-13-2012, 01:18 PM   #11166 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by WOOLCOCK View Post
Its probably a selfish attitude admittedly, but I'm watching wrestling as an individual hoping to get angles/matches that appeal to my tastes alone. Punk/Bryan had a horrendous build going into Over The Limit, but all I cared about was seeing how they wrestled and the match they put on. I'd sooner get more matches like that in the main event than the sort of feud which might get over more with casuals, but which ultimately will struggle to entertain me personally segment/match wise.
I can totally relate to this section, which brings us into a bit of a grey area. Bryan/Punk was an awesome wrestling match, admittedly. It didn't need any build whatsoever. Who is to say that it wouldn't have been even more awesome with a more intriguing build, a la Punk/Cena from MITB 2011. Bryan/Punk might be the better wrestling match, but I'd be surprised if a majority of viewers didn't hold Punk/Cena in higher regard.

That being said, I understand your stance and I want to avoid turning this into a debate on drawing as much as anyone. I'll leave it at that.
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Old 12-13-2012, 01:33 PM   #11167 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Drawing and money shouldn't come into conversation if were talking about the quality/importance in something in any entertainment medium.

Citizen Kane bombed at the box office and was a financial failure when it originally came out. Yet people consider the greatest movie ever made and it singlehandedly changed filmmaking forever.

Transformers 2 was a huge financial success. Yet people consider it one of the worst blockbusters ever made and did fuck all for filmmaking as a whole.

Thats why it makes me giggle that the goons over in the GOAT thread are using nothing but who drew the most money as evidence as to why they think someone is the GOAT.
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Old 12-13-2012, 01:34 PM   #11168 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by The Reindeer Killer View Post
Yeah, I remember talking to you right after the Hunter/BROCK match took place. We were on the same page. Doesn't come close to Cena/BROCK, but why does it need to? Both matches are great, with one being clearly better than the other. Doesn't make H/BROCK bad. I loved the psychology of H literally stumbling into Lesnar's weakness (stomach). Brock's selling was fucking awesome. I seriously thought his gut was fucked.
Yeah. I wish the commentators had played up Lesnar's stomach issues more.

Brock taking off the gloves was
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Old 12-13-2012, 01:39 PM   #11169 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Brock taking off the gloves was double imo. Then he lands DAT PUNCH to the back of head. Such a badass moment. Speaking of Bork, I'm starting to wonder how the whole Heyman thing is going to come into play as we enter the RTWM though. I mean, Brock will be coming back for a match that much is for sure. Is Heyman going to stick with Punk, leave him for Brock or manage both of them at the same time?
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Old 12-13-2012, 01:41 PM   #11170 (permalink)
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Default Re: Official DVD/Match/Show Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ownage™ View Post
Yeah. I wish the commentators had played up Lesnar's stomach issues more.

Brock taking off the gloves was
The SMIRK was also awesome.
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